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Old 04-01-2014, 01:59 PM
4,718 posts, read 8,944,137 times
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Don't know much about this. So I hope someone can chime in on why this is a bad idea?

Demand CO2-free gasoline..it exists now (NH3). | Just another WordPress.com site

Seems like there would be no need for a fuel cell, if we went to Ammonia.
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Old 04-03-2014, 09:36 PM
Location: Port Charlotte
3,926 posts, read 4,745,494 times
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You cannot have a gasoline engine that does not generate CO2. Water and CO2 are the result of combustion. Simple chemistry.

You want a cleaner engine, do away with ethanol mixtures. Ethanol reduces the power, reduces the mileage. Doesn't matter what the proponents claim. Ethanol only benefits the corn farmers and ethanol producers.
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Old 04-03-2014, 10:43 PM
15,924 posts, read 17,378,228 times
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I see the OP is based on someone's personal rah-rah blog on ammonia with the typical rantings on big bad evil oil companies...

The author of this blog says all there needs to be said:

I was inspired to publicize the existence of NH3 fuel in a small way with this blog and Farcebook.

Incredibly when publicized as an Event there was little interest..MORE AGAINST THAN IN FAVOUR.

People cant believe it and see me as one more internet crank.
One other item to mention, in the numerous articles posted on this blog it talks about several million deaths caused by air pollution (with the association of gasoline powered vehicles being the cause).

Don't know about ya'll but when I read an article with flat out lies it tends to make me suspect on whatever else the article says....

Last edited by plwhit; 04-03-2014 at 10:53 PM..
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Old 04-04-2014, 03:19 AM
Location: DC
6,510 posts, read 6,430,643 times
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NH3 is produced from natural gas with CO2 as a byproduct. The fuel cycle is not carbon free.
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:10 AM
Location: 3rd rock from a nearby star
468 posts, read 579,490 times
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Most ammonia used commercially requires burning of natural gas (or worse coal) thus CO2 is released as a byproduct. There are some companies that produce "green" ammonia, and use of ammonia as a method of holding energy as an alternative to a battery at first seemed interesting. After all, ammonia can be produced via green energy, but the stuff used to power a car is dangerous, and before taxes works out to nearly $4 per gallon. I see a price listed in the article for liquid ammonia cleaner, used in a home. The ammonia used in this car is not cheap. It is also amazingly caustic. If you come into contact with it some you are more likely to visit an emergency room than contact with gasoline.

Ammonia is less flammable than gas, but is very toxic and dangerous. Ammonia gas is lighter than air, but if there is moisture in the air, toxic vapors heavier than air will be created. At first ammonia sounded nice, and we can hope to one day find better battery technology, or a safe and green alternative to gas.

This car is produced by a tire company to get free publicity, not by a car company for production. To be green, we must find better solutions, not have someone drop a hose and pollute a fueling station with toxic gas. Ammonia, particularly green ammonia is not inexpensive, and not at all safe. If mixed with chlorine or carbon dioxide it will create something similar to mustard gas. As such it is also dangerous to sell due to the ease with which it can be weaponized.

A few facts are available from the State of New York about ammonia - The Facts About Ammonia

Last edited by Zot; 04-04-2014 at 10:23 AM..
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:11 AM
Location: Cincinnati near
2,539 posts, read 3,510,315 times
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Because ammonia can be oxidized to an inert gas and water much like hydrocarbons, it is inevitable that people will consider it as a fuel source. However, there are some very good reasons why hydrocarbons make better fuels.

I will go into more details if people desire, but in layman's terms, the biggest problems with ammonia as a fuel (when compared to hydrocarbon chains) are that it is much more difficult to store (as a low temperature, dry,compressed gas), it is a lot more difficult to reach the thermodynamic products of combustion (N2 and H2O), and as a result the toxic kinetic products are much more prevalent. Also, it is more toxic than hydrocarbons in the case of a spill, it has around half the energy density, and it can react spectacularly with many common acids. Also, ammonia is so unstable that we would never find it just laying there under the ground like fossil fuels.

There are, however, proposed ways in which ammonia oxidation shows some promise. These technologies are part of a broader initiative towards a "hydrogen economy" where reversible hydrogenation/dehydrogenation reactions (redox reactions) represent the ability to store redox potential energy. This approach also considers hydrogen storage as a compressed gas, as kinetically stable metal hydrides, as hydrocarbons, and as electric charge in batteries. In other words, it is not practical to power all of our devices with tanks of hydrogen gas, but that hydrogen carriers such as ammonia and the examples listed above could serve as substitutes, depending on the application.

As someone alluded to above, the problem with hydrocarbons as a fuel is not that they are a bad storage medium for the energy. In fact, they make fantastic fuels. The problem is that we need to alter their equilibrium concentrations in our environment so much to extract them. Burning coal to produce ammonia is very counterproductive as an energy strategy. As far as I have seen, it is much easier to harvest energy from renewable sources using carbon than nitrogen. Nature sure thinks so (photosynthesis).
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Old 04-04-2014, 09:19 AM
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
17,753 posts, read 53,902,796 times
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DCforever is correct. The reasons for not going that route are even greater though. Ammonia based refrigeration is the second most dangerous type of refrigeration because of the dangers of ammonia. We aren't talking about the household cleaner ammonia that is rough on the lungs, we are discussing the pure stuff that will rip your lungs out and turn them into pink slime. Ammonium nitrate has been used in explosive manufacture and bomb making because of the high energy content. It also, except for the natural gas by-product, takes a tremendous amount of energy to make. Originally, nearly the entire output of the huge dam in Muscle Shoals was going to be used to make ammonia compounds for the war effort in WW I.
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Old 04-04-2014, 03:35 PM
4,718 posts, read 8,944,137 times
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Thanks for the feedback, notice my post was a question and not a statement. I understand now...
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