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Old 05-06-2014, 07:03 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 18,382,522 times
Reputation: 3688

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
It's always in the details and I'll guarantee that if I look further there is move involved in that, the next thing to look at is if they are generating green credits being sold to the power distributors in Texas to meet state imposed mandates.
Federal coal subsidies - SourceWatch
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Old 05-06-2014, 07:18 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 18,382,522 times
Reputation: 3688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakster View Post
Wow. that graphic you posted was stretching the thread... It finally loaded and snapped back!

Basically, it was said, because it was the only way I could think of that would get anyone to switch to clean(er) technologies. Don't worry, your coal is here to stay and at the price you are paying. It may even go down so that natural gas and other energies can't drive you away. I need to research the article that shows coal companies are selling coal at a loss in some areas. And notice I don't currently have to make any choices... Other than how do I want to get electrical power.

Not a big fan of fracking and now with the latest more methane leaks out than previously thought studies I am starting to like it even less.
i know i just read about companies selling at a loss in australia because they have already purchased the freight space and have to pay for it whether they deliver the coal or not, so they're selling coal at a price lower than their cost. it didn't provide a great deal of detail though.

Bottom line for me is continue to find ways to reduce my energy consumption, add solar panels to my roof to produce energy for myself and a few neighbors, and give as little money as possible to these companies who are dying a slow death.
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Old 05-06-2014, 07:36 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 18,382,522 times
Reputation: 3688
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
There is minimum charge here in PA plus the additional per kWh. You may suggest why not just give everyone a flat fee but that is going to screw up the way these costs are distributed for regular ratepayers. If I'm using $20K of electric per month and you are using $100 the costs for infrastructure is far greater for me. The per kWh distribution/transmission fee fairly distributes those costs. If you use more electric there is more infrastructure costs and you pay more.

Solar throws a monkey wrench into that formula.
your point here is a good one. The house that uses very little electricity has a far lower cost to their utility, because the electricity doesn't have to travel through the grid from the central location it was created and be delivered to that house. there's a cost to that, because some of the electricity just never gets to the destination. So, further that into a solar household that has a net use of 0. yes, they took electricity from the grid, but they also supplied electricity that went to the numerous houses on their block. that also helps reduce the cost for the utility for every single one of those households during peak consumption times, aka, the costliest times of day.

i'm not opposed to a reasonable grid-tie fee. what's happening though is the fees they are seeking are quite high. they're scared, because they're losing revenue. that's the cause of the skepticism and the criticism. you love coal. we get it. but the cost of solar continues to decrease no matter how many times you want to quote your calculations from 2009. that was half a decade ago, by the way.
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Old 05-06-2014, 07:58 AM
 
Location: DC
6,509 posts, read 6,427,712 times
Reputation: 3112
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
your point here is a good one. The house that uses very little electricity has a far lower cost to their utility, because the electricity doesn't have to travel through the grid from the central location it was created and be delivered to that house. there's a cost to that, because some of the electricity just never gets to the destination. So, further that into a solar household that has a net use of 0. yes, they took electricity from the grid, but they also supplied electricity that went to the numerous houses on their block. that also helps reduce the cost for the utility for every single one of those households during peak consumption times, aka, the costliest times of day.

i'm not opposed to a reasonable grid-tie fee. what's happening though is the fees they are seeking are quite high. they're scared, because they're losing revenue. that's the cause of the skepticism and the criticism. you love coal. we get it. but the cost of solar continues to decrease no matter how many times you want to quote your calculations from 2009. that was half a decade ago, by the way.
Distribution system losses are typically 8-10%. It's not a big cost. As I've previously stated, the fixed cost of providing distribution services is about $20-30/mo. Most utility minimum bills don't charge that much so as solar use increases, utilities will have to adjust their charges.
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Old 05-07-2014, 10:28 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 18,382,522 times
Reputation: 3688
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Distribution system losses are typically 8-10%. It's not a big cost. As I've previously stated, the fixed cost of providing distribution services is about $20-30/mo. Most utility minimum bills don't charge that much so as solar use increases, utilities will have to adjust their charges.
10% loss of your product isn't small either though. My point is simply that the utility sees benefits from a more distributed generation, especially if the utility didn't bear the cost of installing all of these little micro-generators (residential homes with solar, for instance). The utility my father works for in PA saw some nice cost savings when FPL threw up a couple of windfarms in Northeast PA.
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Old 05-07-2014, 10:39 AM
 
Location: DC
6,509 posts, read 6,427,712 times
Reputation: 3112
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
10% loss of your product isn't small either though. My point is simply that the utility sees benefits from a more distributed generation, especially if the utility didn't bear the cost of installing all of these little micro-generators (residential homes with solar, for instance). The utility my father works for in PA saw some nice cost savings when FPL threw up a couple of windfarms in Northeast PA.
Actually most utility tariffs if used in the net metering mode under collect from residential consumers generating some of their energy.

Wind farms are a different issue because they are wholesale generators just like everybody else. What your father's utility probably saw was a reduction in congestion charges. In PJM more generation is in the west and load in the east so the further east one locates generation, the better off the overall system.
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:01 AM
 
Location: West Orange, NJ
12,545 posts, read 18,382,522 times
Reputation: 3688
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Actually most utility tariffs if used in the net metering mode under collect from residential consumers generating some of their energy.

Wind farms are a different issue because they are wholesale generators just like everybody else. What your father's utility probably saw was a reduction in congestion charges. In PJM more generation is in the west and load in the east so the further east one locates generation, the better off the overall system.
there were numerous areas where they saved. The wind farm near our house powers about 60,000 homes. that's a huge chunk of power that PPL no longer had to generate, and they were able to take a lot of equipment offline because of it. They made the mistake of not doing the wind farm themselves, and you could see how FPL was bringing in some nice revenue from those wind farms, PPL missed the boat thinking the initial investment was too costly for a proper ROI. this was back in 2003.
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Old 05-07-2014, 03:05 PM
 
39,193 posts, read 40,579,931 times
Reputation: 16076
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradykp View Post
I tell you what, you go through each and everyone of them and justify them being listed. Even if you could it's still going to be a miniscule amount when you are looking at the subsidy per kWh.

This is always my favorite one:

Quote:
Exclusion of Benefit Payments to Disabled Miners (annual subsidy: $438 million) - 30 U.S.C. 922(c). Disability payments out of the Black Lung Disability Trust Fund are not treated as income to the recipients.
Coal mines pay a tax that is used to fund black lung benefits. The recipients pay no income tax on it, in other words there is no tax on a tax. LOL
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