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Old 10-19-2014, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,536,189 times
Reputation: 10573

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Oh no, prices for electricity won't go up.
Clue: they have already and will continue.

Energy bills rise by 37% in three years | Money | The Observer
Shopping for headlines again? It certainly seems so from these.

This one is an article about Scotland, which has a completely different utility system than we do. It's irrelevant to our situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Interesting chart about time of use and price of electricity.
Notice how it goes up?

Historical Electricity Prices | OEB
Again, this is about Canada, not the US, with different laws, different situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
And this little jewel.
As the cost to produce electricity goes down, the prices keep going up and the savings aren't passed onto consumers.
Whoda thunk?

Electricity Prices Rise Despite Cheaper Costs For Utility Companies
Well over two years old, the info is obsolete.
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Old 10-19-2014, 12:02 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,832,318 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
The website lost my response to your post #47, so I'm not avoiding your responses, but that was a long post that I will address.



Not dramatically no. Most people will charge when they are at home simply due to convenience. When and where do you charge your cell phone? Most people I know charge in their car and when they are asleep at home. So demand going up wouldn't really be an issue because we are talking about the off peak period.

Most people I know cut the cords to land lines a long time ago. The phone isn't in the car charging at night. The phones stay with them because they've moved on from older technologies. Convenience isn't charging at home, convenience is charging when and where you want, not at home because that is the only practical place to do it.




Then name the factors. This entire discussion is based on the criteria you set forth in the OP, which is all the issues related to EV have been solved, there are charging systems on every corner, and everybody that wants an EV has one or can get one. You go on to state that people won't charge at home because they need to fill up when they need to fill up (which is because there is no economical way to refuel at home for ICE's) and that recharging will cost the same as gas.

That doesn't wash. You spoke about installing natural gas generators at some point (I think it was you - anyway...). One couldn't install a natural gas refueling station at home for a natural gas fueled vehicle? Sure they could. A natural gas fueled vehicle has an ICE btw.

Getting back to the criteria, we suppose recharging stations are every place gas stations are now.

If you could charge in minutes just about anywhere you still believe that charging at home is more convenient? Why is that when more options are more convenient that fewer?

Taking your example of the cell phone, you say you charge in your car. Why not charge at home? Ah, convenience. So you like convenience and charge your phone in your car. Now turn the tables and have someone tell you that you really don't need to charge your phone in your car. What would you say?


Yes, you absolutely can go home or anywhere that has a charging station if you can't go home. You seem to be operating under the assumption that there will be some kind of barrier to setting up a charging station, when there is practically none. OTOH, setting up a gas station is going to run in the 100's of thousands of dollars to install the tanks and then about $100-$250K to excavate the tanks (excavating prices seem to vary widely from a low of $100K to a high of $400K - if the area needs to be cleaned up).

Incorrect. There are no barriers to installing charging stations other than money. I made that really clear, you said so yourself in the above comment. The premise is that charging stations are as common as gas stations. This isn't about what it costs to install a gas station vs a charging station. The costs to recover the dollars need to install a gas station are recovered very quickly. The price of gas isn't high because it costs a lot of install a gas station. It is high because of people's willingness to pay for something they've come to depend on.

As I've maintained, once you become dependent on something, as reality or perception, the people selling what you need or want can raise the prices and you'll pay for it. If you say that it doesn't work that way, there is an entire economy that proves you incorrect.




Since we already have an electricity grid all anyone has to do is install a recharge system and those cost anywhere from $3.5K to $25K for the level 2 and 3 chargers, respectively. People can install those systems with no upfront cost as long as you buy from the Blink or ChargePoint companies I mentioned earlier.

Where do people living in apartments, leased or rented places install them? You also talk about something that is "free". There is no such thing. No upfront costs means backend costs paid by you. It all adds up to the cost of the charge. Again though, the idea is that chargers are just about everywhere. Only the fact that you make where charges can be an issue is why this is even being talked about. You basically created an argument where none existed because it justifies support for low charging prices when it has nothing to do with it.


I'm sure they already have. The electric companies benefit from more people using electricity, the oil companies don't gain anything.

Where do you think the electric companies get the fuels to generate electricity? Are you perhaps unaware of how many electric generating plants use oil? Please explain then, how the oil companies do not benefit or gain anything?

Take Hawaii for example, since that came up in a search at the top. Over 70% of the fuels used to generate electricity is oil. Is someone else other than an oil company selling them oil? I thought a company selling oil to an electric company is called an oil company. Come on.





The politicians already know they will have to get the money from somewhere else. Higher registrations fees, higher taxes, taxed on mileage used and paid at the time of your inspection are all possibilities.

As opposed to simply adding taxes to the point of charge? Politicians are many things but complete idiots they are not. Why would they go elsewhere to get the money when they can get it the same way they've been getting it? That doesn't make sense.

Well, right now it is a way to attract higher income individuals. Need to shop? Need to charge? Come to Kohls and charge for free! We have a lot of free charge stations in Chicago, but the fee based systems are all charging less than $4/hr. Commercial customers have lower prices than residential and the current residential price is anywhere from .06-.09/kwh, so it sounds like they are making money on the current setup.

Right now isn't part of the discussion. Right now you can get cable TV for just a few dollars. After your introductory freebies are gone, the price goes up more than twice. The incentives to use an EV will disappear at some point and that point is what we're talking about. I'm trying hard to keep the here and now out of this, the discussion is about a different scenario, everyone is using EVs (or most everyone). You are making that difficult to talk about, is that on purpose?



First, most people I know park in parking lots. Street parking is used when shopping somewhere like the Mag Mile, but not for malls that expect people to drive in and shop.

Have you visited a large city? The streets are full of parked cars. There are so many cars parking on the streets they have to issue parking permits so that people have a place to park their cars when they go home. BTW, just where will these people charge their cars while at home? If you say the cities will install chargers on all streets and in all possible parking spaces, fine. Just how will they do that, mark parking spaces where none are marked now? Right now, people park in the spaces that they can fit their car. If the spaces are made all the same that will reduce the available parking spaces.

That is the big problem in your argument. You talk about charging at home. In many cities, home is not on some lot, it is in a building and parking is on the street, not in some garage.

In those cities, have you seen what they charge for parking? Now if the cities install chargers, they aren't going to charge similarly high prices? Since you don't have a choice on where to park you aren't going to have a choice on what you pay to charge either. Do you have any say on how much you pay to park if you need to park?

So please explain what happens in all the major cities where the most common place to park is on the street, even when you are at home?

You keep going back to what you do or the people you know. What about the over 300 million other people?


Second, you don't see gas stations at malls because there is hardly any room to put the tanks and pumps in, tanks are expensive, and the profit margin on gas isn't that high. However, you do see gas stations at grocery stores and those gas stations do attract customers. "Spend X dollars here and save .05/gal".

Costco proves you wrong. Space isn't a real consideration since one gas filling station can service thousands of cars in short order. You say the profit on gas isn't very high. Do you know how many gallons of gas is sent through pumps at even a moderately busy station. You're way off base here, way off. Then you talk about the discounts for gas based on buying something. Ah, you think that discount of free? Of course it isn't, it is built into buying something. That goes right back to the cover charge for entering a club and getting a drink for 10 cents and thinking somehow that the drink cost you 10 cents. Really?

Again, you've tried over and over again to make where charging station are located an issue when I've repeatedly stated it doesn't matter. I only talk about because you brought it up. Now, can we agree that recharging stations would be as common as gas station and avoid this useless talk? It is a distraction. Thanks.


Third, a charging station does not require much space at all. I posted a gif upthread that had the charging station in an apartment complex.

I could care less, it has nothing to do with anything here. You're trying to make an issue out of thin air.

There's an app for that. It can't stop someone from unplugging your car, but it will let you know if your car is unplugged.

Could care less about the app. Goes back to your trying to make an issue out of something that isn't. We're talking about the price of charging, not some app. An app might show you where to get the least expensive charge, other than that this whole topic of where a charging station can or can't be is your alone. I brought up charging station only in the sense that no one is going to install them for free and when they do install them they will charge you much higher rates that you seem to believe they will.


But charging would be more convenient. I can't install a pump with a pipeline running to the gas station, but I can install a charging station and charge an EV overnight since I am already tied to the electricity grid.

With enough money you can do almost anything. That you can install a charging station at home is irrelevant. That you might need a charge when your away from home is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it will cost you. You keep dancing around that by claiming people will do this or that but when it comes to the utilities charging you more for charging, suddenly people won't do that. Please stay on topic.



No the value is never having to pay for gas ever again. I spend about $6K on gas, $80 on oil changes, , $30 on an air filter, and some unknown amount on incidentals that don't pop up until they do (spark plugs, sensor, etc.), so over a 10 yr period I will spend $60K+ and time on just fuel and ICE related maintenance and issues. Now, the Tesla needs inspections too if you want to keep the guaranteed residual value, but those are only $600/yr.

Not everyone will use a Tesla (or perhaps you think there will be only one EV car brand?). This isn't about Tesla or you. It is about what was contained in the OP. There is plenty of room in that to discuss the ins and outs without constantly going back to your Tesla.

EVs require maintenance too. They use tires (made with what? Oil by products), have systems that can and do fail and require replacement and maintenance. An electric window in an ICE vehicle isn't anymore likely to fail than on in an EV.

Regardless, Tesla owners are paying 80-100+ grand for lower maintenance costs? Please. You're really reaching on that one.

Using your comment though, if someone pays 60 k for a car and 30k on maintenance and fuel, they've spent less money than you did on a $100,000 Tesla? How does that work? You are away though, that many cars in the 60k range come with "free" maintenance right? That includes oil changes, fluids, and everything else except the price of gas.

Even economy cars like the Mini Cooper come with "free" maintenance. "Free" in so long as you pay for it and if you think Tesla is giving you something for free, then not much left talk about, they took you to the bank.


If the Tesla met my needs I would definitely save money by driving one.
I thought you said you own a Tesla. I'm almost positive you did. Where does the "if" come from? I'm bring this up because you did and it isn't passing the smell test here. You either own and drive a Tesla or you don't. It isn't something someone would say and then mistakenly say "if" they owned one.

You would save money? You said you have one. "Would" means you don't own one. Sorry but this reeks of something I'd rather not say because I've suspected from your dissecting of my posts in the exact same manner I've seen before. I knew when Tesla became the only subject you wanted to talk about something was up.

Clear as a bell.
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Old 10-19-2014, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,536,189 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Convenience isn't charging at home, convenience is charging when and where you want, not at home because that is the only practical place to do it.
Then why do so many EV owners mention the convenience of charging at home as one of the things they like most about driving an EV?

Quote:
Take Hawaii for example, since that came up in a search at the top. Over 70% of the fuels used to generate electricity is oil. Is someone else other than an oil company selling them oil? I thought a company selling oil to an electric company is called an oil company. Come on.
Nahh, you probably don't want to use Hawai'i as an example, because Hawai'i is getting out from under their dependence on oil as fast as they can. On the Big Island, for example, HELCO is poised to hit their current target of 50% of the electricity they sell coming from renewable energy sources by next year. Then the target goes up.

Quote:
Lycos: The politicians already know they will have to get the money from somewhere else. Higher registrations fees, higher taxes, taxed on mileage used and paid at the time of your inspection are all possibilities.

Mack: As opposed to simply adding taxes to the point of charge? Politicians are many things but complete idiots they are not. Why would they go elsewhere to get the money when they can get it the same way they've been getting it? That doesn't make sense.
One major difference that you continue to ignore. If they raise taxes on gasoline, it only affects gasoline users. If they raise fees on EVs, it only affects EV owners. But if they raise taxes on electricity, it affects everyone.

Quote:
Right now isn't part of the discussion. Right now you can get cable TV for just a few dollars. After your introductory freebies are gone, the price goes up more than twice.
No it doesn't. Not for Limited Basic cable, which is still a staple, if not an absolute necessity of life. It's only when you add optional entertainment channels that you get into the world of upcharges and promotional discounts and the rest. And let's be honest, it's a weak argument to compare optional entertainment charges with fuel prices, especially since the whole cable TV system as we've known it for decades is now in failure mode. A common conversational topic among my acquaintances recently is ... "Have you cut the cable yet?" Many have. Streaming video over the internet is displacing it. Ala carte pricing, in which you order only the channels you care about, so long resisted by the industry, will likely be the next broad effort by cable operators to try to retain their user base. Meanwhile even HBO is going to independent access via streaming, so it can't be used any more as the headliner in a package you don't really want except for it.

Moral of the story... disruptive technologies are rearranging the basic blocks of daily life. This is one of the things you don't ever seem to take into account as you analyze every new thing based on past patterns and paradigms.

Quote:
The incentives to use an EV will disappear at some point and that point is what we're talking about. I'm trying hard to keep the here and now out of this, the discussion is about a different scenario, everyone is using EVs (or most everyone).
But your repeated criticism of EVs is that they will NEVER be successful with the masses, and now you want to argue about what it will be like WHEN they have become totally successful with the masses... which is it? Playing both ends against the middle is just a strategy to keep deflecting rebuttals to your arguments. When you get a rebuttal on one front you just flip to the other side. Which do you believe in your heart to actually be the true future?

Quote:
You keep going back to what you do or the people you know. What about the over 300 million other people?
See what I mean? You keep switching your stance as a way not to deal with the great big middle ground that reasonable people can easily agree on... that EVs will fit a certain niche for the foreseeable future, and that some people will accept their differences and limitations compared to ICE cars, and some won't. At this point the EV share of the total market is small, and growth in the sector will be accompanied by progressive shifts in policies and regulations, to which everyone will adjust in whatever way that they do.

What you never account for in your projections is the disruptive nature of EVs in a fossil fuel dominated cultural segment, when the delivery path for the energy used by the consumers is so different.

Quote:
EVs require maintenance too. They use tires (made with what? Oil by products), have systems that can and do fail and require replacement and maintenance. An electric window in an ICE vehicle isn't anymore likely to fail than on in an EV.
Sure, but the economies of maintaining an electric motor with one moving part and a transmission containing one moving part versus an ICE equipped vehicle using 100s of parts, many moving, some reciprocating should be obvious. The major maintenance point in an EV drivetrain is the bearings, and the whole drive unit can be removed and replaced overnight in the better designs. That's why many analysts say these could easily become half million mile vehicles as an everyday occurrence.

Quote:
Sorry but this reeks of something I'd rather not say because I've suspected from your dissecting of my posts in the exact same manner I've seen before. I knew when Tesla became the only subject you wanted to talk about something was up.

Clear as a bell.
Translation: OP suspects Lycos as actually being me in disguise, since we have similar interstitial commenting styles and both are Tesla fans. Heaven forfend that two individuals who don't even know each other should have similar objections to OPs arguments.
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Old 10-19-2014, 09:02 PM
 
11,780 posts, read 8,562,986 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Most people I know cut the cords to land lines a long time ago. The phone isn't in the car charging at night. The phones stay with them because they've moved on from older technologies. Convenience isn't charging at home, convenience is charging when and where you want, not at home because that is the only practical place to do it.


I haven't said otherwise, but where do people charge their phones? Most people that I know charge in the car while they are driving and at their house while they are sleeping and sometimes at a friend's house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
That doesn't wash. You spoke about installing natural gas generators at some point (I think it was you - anyway...). One couldn't install a natural gas refueling station at home for a natural gas fueled vehicle? Sure they could. A natural gas fueled vehicle has an ICE btw.
Technically a person could if they wanted, but a CNG machine is $10K for residential use and the CNG Honda is more expensive than the gas Honda. That said, I wasn't referring to CNG cars because most cars use gas and Honda makes the only CNG car unless you pay for a retrofit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Getting back to the criteria, we suppose recharging stations are every place gas stations are now.

If you could charge in minutes just about anywhere you still believe that charging at home is more convenient? Why is that when more options are more convenient that fewer?
Yes. The reason charging at home is more convenient is because you car is already going to be parked at home while you sleep and it literally takes 30 seconds to plug it in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Taking your example of the cell phone, you say you charge in your car. Why not charge at home? Ah, convenience. So you like convenience and charge your phone in your car. Now turn the tables and have someone tell you that you really don't need to charge your phone in your car. What would you say?
I do charge at home. I also charge in my car. I could charge elsewhere too, but my phone will normally last me until I get back home. Now, my laptop is a different story. I usually charge that wherever I am at. Coffee shops, diners/cafes, a friend's house, and libraries are the best places to charge and where I typically use my laptop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Incorrect. There are no barriers to installing charging stations other than money. I made that really clear, you said so yourself in the above comment. The premise is that charging stations are as common as gas stations. This isn't about what it costs to install a gas station vs a charging station. The costs to recover the dollars need to install a gas station are recovered very quickly. The price of gas isn't high because it costs a lot of install a gas station. It is high because of people's willingness to pay for something they've come to depend on.


Gas is high due to supply and demand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
As I've maintained, once you become dependent on something, as reality or perception, the people selling what you need or want can raise the prices and you'll pay for it. If you say that it doesn't work that way, there is an entire economy that proves you incorrect.
I don't disagree at all. Where I do disagree with you is with the idea that charging stations will have any sort of pricing power at all and will be able to get anywhere near $40 for a charge when the commercial electrical rates are lower than residential and the residential rates are at .12/kwh. That comes out to $10.02 to fill up at home if you have a 85kwh battery.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Where do people living in apartments, leased or rented places install them? You also talk about something that is "free". There is no such thing. No upfront costs means backend costs paid by you. It all adds up to the cost of the charge. Again though, the idea is that chargers are just about everywhere. Only the fact that you make where charges can be an issue is why this is even being talked about. You basically created an argument where none existed because it justifies support for low charging prices when it has nothing to do with it.


1. They can install them in the parking lots. http://www.plugincars.com/sites/defa...s/img_1450.png
2. Yes, there is no such thing as free, but if companies have to shell out $25K they might not make the purchase, but if they can buy with nothing down they aren't disrupting their cash balance.
3. You asked me where people would go if they need a charge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post

Where do you think the electric companies get the fuels to generate electricity? Are you perhaps unaware of how many electric generating plants use oil? Please explain then, how the oil companies do not benefit or gain anything?

Take Hawaii for example, since that came up in a search at the top. Over 70% of the fuels used to generate electricity is oil. Is someone else other than an oil company selling them oil? I thought a company selling oil to an electric company is called an oil company. Come on.


Petroleum is basically the least used source for electricity generation.

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=427&t=3

In 2013, energy sources and percent share of total electricity generation were
  • Coal 39%
  • Natural Gas 27%
  • Nuclear 19%
  • Hydropower 7%
  • Other Renewable 6%
    • Biomass 1.48%
    • Geothermal 0.41%
    • Solar 0.23%
    • Wind 4.13%
  • Petroleum 1%
  • Other Gases < 1%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
As opposed to simply adding taxes to the point of charge? Politicians are many things but complete idiots they are not. Why would they go elsewhere to get the money when they can get it the same way they've been getting it? That doesn't make sense.


Ease of collection. There is one way to get gas, but multiple ways to get electricity. They know who has a car via registration, they know who has income via state tax returns, they can find out how many miles are driven via inspection/registration, but what they don't know is who has a charging station or who is off grid. Plus, the reason I suggesting raising income taxes, vehicle fees, or assessing a vehicle charge is because politicians have already made and implemented those proposals.

WA state and NC already impose a $100 fee on EV owners. Virginia proposed raising sales taxes and assessing a $100 fee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post

Right now isn't part of the discussion. Right now you can get cable TV for just a few dollars. After your introductory freebies are gone, the price goes up more than twice. The incentives to use an EV will disappear at some point and that point is what we're talking about. I'm trying hard to keep the here and now out of this, the discussion is about a different scenario, everyone is using EVs (or most everyone). You are making that difficult to talk about, is that on purpose?
Definitely not trying to steer the convo on purpose. I was just trying to address why a company would offer a charging station. Right now it is to attract and offer an amenity to customers. In the future it could be like offering a Redbox or newspaper machine.

Plus, if charging machines are plentiful in the future they will probably not be congregated at a gas station type center. Most likely the stations will be installed where people already go (like shopping centers, restaurants, CVS, employment centers, etc.) vs located at a destination people have to drive to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post

Have you visited a large city? The streets are full of parked cars. There are so many cars parking on the streets they have to issue parking permits so that people have a place to park their cars when they go home.
Yes, I live in one of the largest and the streets are filled with cars, however, most of those people go home and park in a parking spot, in front of their house, or in their driveway. The people that live in Condos or apartments that do park on the street still have parking spots. Typically, and this may not apply to NYC, there is a parking lane and just like parking meters can be installed so can charging machines. Some of the cords are 18 ft long, so I don't see that as a huge issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
BTW, just where will these people charge their cars while at home? If you say the cities will install chargers on all streets and in all possible parking spaces, fine. Just how will they do that, mark parking spaces where none are marked now? Right now, people park in the spaces that they can fit their car. If the spaces are made all the same that will reduce the available parking spaces.
Not the city, no, but the landlord or tenants can install the charging machine. It really depends on who owns the land and how the parking situation is actually set up. Parking lanes usually have spots painted unless you are in front of a house in which case the spot is implied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
That is the big problem in your argument. You talk about charging at home. In many cities, home is not on some lot, it is in a building and parking is on the street, not in some garage.
Parking on the street is still usually adjacent to some usable land, but that isn't going to be most people. There just isn't enough land for 300 people to park on the street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
In those cities, have you seen what they charge for parking? Now if the cities install chargers, they aren't going to charge similarly high prices? Since you don't have a choice on where to park you aren't going to have a choice on what you pay to charge either. Do you have any say on how much you pay to park if you need to park?


That depends on what we are talking about. A private lot will usually charge by the hour or day, a garage will charge by the month, and street parking is free, but you might have to park a mile from your house. You do have a choice though and you will still have a choice with electricity. You see, while there will be some places that will try to charge an arm and a leg (like the charge station in the middle of nowhere), most of the stations will charge the market rate. None of these stations are going to know that you have nowhere else to charge or can't charge at home, so they are going to charge about the same as the McD's or CVS down the street will charge.

I do see your point, but don't think it is something to be overly concerned about since it applies to very few people. I mean, you can get the electricity from anywhere, but you can't exactly park anywhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
So please explain what happens in all the major cities where the most common place to park is on the street, even when you are at home?

You keep going back to what you do or the people you know. What about the over 300 million other people?
They install charging systems adjacent to the street similar to how they install parking meters. I spoke about the people I know because I live in a city and I thought you were talking about city dwellers that park on the street when shopping.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post

Costco proves you wrong. Space isn't a real consideration since one gas filling station can service thousands of cars in short order. You say the profit on gas isn't very high. Do you know how many gallons of gas is sent through pumps at even a moderately busy station. You're way off base here, way off. Then you talk about the discounts for gas based on buying something. Ah, you think that discount of free? Of course it isn't, it is built into buying something. That goes right back to the cover charge for entering a club and getting a drink for 10 cents and thinking somehow that the drink cost you 10 cents. Really?


Again, you've tried over and over again to make where charging station are located an issue when I've repeatedly stated it doesn't matter. I only talk about because you brought it up. Now, can we agree that recharging stations would be as common as gas station and avoid this useless talk? It is a distraction. Thanks.
[/quote]

Costco actually proves me right since they are a grocery store and not a mall (technically they are a warehouse club, but still). The profit on gas just isn't very high. Gas stations do make profit on volume, but the 1-2% profit just isn't very high at all. Where they usually make money is on the convenience store side selling soda, beer, candy, cigarettes, chips, and coffee. Now, obviously a discount isn't free, but it is offered as a way to attract customers. Some stores will mark gas up enough that the gas is at cost after the discount or they might take a small loss, but make up for it by having you buy $X amount of groceries.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Could care less about the app. Goes back to your trying to make an issue out of something that isn't. We're talking about the price of charging, not some app. An app might show you where to get the least expensive charge, other than that this whole topic of where a charging station can or can't be is your alone. I brought up charging station only in the sense that no one is going to install them for free and when they do install them they will charge you much higher rates that you seem to believe they will.
There is no reason to believe the rates would be significantly higher though. As it stands, a charging machine is cheap to install and the commercial energy rates are cheaper than residential rates.

Here are the average rates by sector for each state. Residential rates are the highest, so the charging stations could possibly charge you less than what you would pay at your house. It really just depends on the volume they do.


Electricity Prices by State | Compare 2013 U.S. Electric Rates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
With enough money you can do almost anything. That you can install a charging station at home is irrelevant. That you might need a charge when your away from home is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it will cost you. You keep dancing around that by claiming people will do this or that but when it comes to the utilities charging you more for charging, suddenly people won't do that. Please stay on topic.

That was on topic. If I can charge at home or if there are more providers means each station has more competition and have no choice but to charge market rates. A gas station has some amount, albeit limited, of pricing power because you have to go to a gas station, but a charging station would have essentially no pricing power because you can get electricity from anywhere. Exceptions will exist, as they always do, but overall the charging station isn't going to be able to charge me $10/kwh when the residential price is .12 and the commercial price is .10.

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Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post

Not everyone will use a Tesla (or perhaps you think there will be only one EV car brand?). This isn't about Tesla or you. It is about what was contained in the OP. There is plenty of room in that to discuss the ins and outs without constantly going back to your Tesla.

EVs require maintenance too. They use tires (made with what? Oil by products), have systems that can and do fail and require replacement and maintenance. An electric window in an ICE vehicle isn't anymore likely to fail than on in an EV.


Yes, some, but it is rather limited to sensors and software updates. There just aren't many moving parts.

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Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Regardless, Tesla owners are paying 80-100+ grand for lower maintenance costs? Please. You're really reaching on that one.


That's still a pretty big selling point. If I'm shopping for a luxury car and one has free recharges for life I'm going to compare what I would spend on gas vs the car with free recharges.

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Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Using your comment though, if someone pays 60 k for a car and 30k on maintenance and fuel, they've spent less money than you did on a $100,000 Tesla? How does that work? You are away though, that many cars in the 60k range come with "free" maintenance right? That includes oil changes, fluids, and everything else except the price of gas.
Yes, but someone spending $60K on a car and $30K on fuel they have spent $20K more than someone that bought an $80K Tesla after you add the federal and state tax credits into the computation. For example, the Tesla with the 85kwh battery is $80K, but there is a $7.5K federal tax credit and LA (state) has a $13.6K tax credit, so the $80K car just became the same price as the $60K car.

Options and features do matter though and those are never cheap. As nice as the Tesla's interior is, I think I would prefer a BMW interior over the Tesla dashboard and seats, I'm not sure if that would reduce the cost though.

The free maintenance is usually only for 3 years/36K and depending on the car, is sometimes only worth a few hundred dollars. Oil changes for example are included, but many of the European cars run for 10-15K between oil changes, so that is $60-$80K/yr plus $15 for a filter.

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Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Even economy cars like the Mini Cooper come with "free" maintenance. "Free" in so long as you pay for it and if you think Tesla is giving you something for free, then not much left talk about, they took you to the bank.
It's free, but it is also built into the cost of the car and sometimes it is also a marketing expense. How much would Tesla be selling the cars if they didn't offer free recharges? Who knows. Would Tesla even be able to sell as many cars without building the charging infrastructure? Again, who knows. Their charging stations are run with solar power, so for all we know they are selling excess energy so offset their costs.

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Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
I thought you said you own a Tesla. I'm almost positive you did. Where does the "if" come from? I'm bring this up because you did and it isn't passing the smell test here. You either own and drive a Tesla or you don't. It isn't something someone would say and then mistakenly say "if" they owned one.

You would save money? You said you have one. "Would" means you don't own one. Sorry but this reeks of something I'd rather not say because I've suspected from your dissecting of my posts in the exact same manner I've seen before. I knew when Tesla became the only subject you wanted to talk about something was up.

Clear as a bell.
You have me confused with someone else as I never said I own a Tesla. In post #35 I said "if I own an EV" and in post #46 I said I did not own a Tesla.
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Old 10-20-2014, 02:43 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,536,189 times
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Lycos, i basically agree with what you said, with a few small edits for accuracy....

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Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
Not the city, no, but the landlord or tenants can install the charging machine. It really depends on who owns the land and how the parking situation is actually set up.
At this point lets clarify that the "charging machines" you refer to are not really machines. They're just heavy duty electrical outlets. The actual chargers are in the cars. That means the charging stations are pretty cheap to install, can be installed anywhere, and don't require all the environmental permits and so on that gasoline pumps require.

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Costco actually proves me right since they are a grocery store and not a mall (technically they are a warehouse club, but still). The profit on gas just isn't very high. Gas stations do make profit on volume, but the 1-2% profit just isn't very high at all. Where they usually make money is on the convenience store side selling soda, beer, candy, cigarettes, chips, and coffee. Now, obviously a discount isn't free, but it is offered as a way to attract customers. Some stores will mark gas up enough that the gas is at cost after the discount or they might take a small loss, but make up for it by having you buy $X amount of groceries.
Again, to be accurate, Costco's business model is to make money on memberships, and sell merchandise at razor thin markups that basically just break even. Gas is cheap to bring people in, and keep them paying for memberships. The hotdog and a soda for $1.50 that has been the same price for 20 years is to bring people in, and keep them paying for memberships. If they offer free charging to EV drivers, it's to bring people in, and keep them paying for memberships.

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Yes, but someone spending $60K on a car and $30K on fuel they have spent $20K more than someone that bought an $80K Tesla after you add the federal and state tax credits into the computation. For example, the Tesla with the 85kwh battery is $80K, but there is a $7.5K federal tax credit and LA (state) has a $13.6K tax credit, so the $80K car just became the same price as the $60K car.
.....
It's free, but it is also built into the cost of the car and sometimes it is also a marketing expense. How much would Tesla be selling the cars if they didn't offer free recharges? Who knows. Would Tesla even be able to sell as many cars without building the charging infrastructure? Again, who knows.
"Free" is such a misused word... the "Free" electricity included in the price of a P85 Tesla is not include with the 60 kwh or the 40 kwh hour models, and will cost you $2,000 at purchase, or $2,500 later to add it to those. So one quibble I have is that you talk about no cost for charging the Tesla for life, when that's only if you did ALL your recharging at a Supercharger, and that's not likely to happen. You'll pay for the normal charges at home, then use the Supercharger (for "free") when you need extended range.

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Their charging stations are run with solar power, so for all we know they are selling excess energy so offset their costs.
To be accurate, some of their Supercharger stations have solar roofs, not all, but the power they generate is supplemental, just a partial offset to the power they purchase. They don't generate enough power with one in a day to do one full charge on a P85 battery. Yet.

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You have me confused with someone else
Told you so.
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