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Old 10-22-2014, 04:36 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles area
14,018 posts, read 17,666,956 times
Reputation: 32302

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Escort Rider View Post
I have to wonder if the issue of a pollution tax on cars is much ado about nothing. The technology of lowering emissions from gasoline powered cars is now quite advanced, and the emissions are therefore very low, so low that I question whether it's something to be concerned about. With each passing year more and more older cars go to the scrap heap and are replaced by more and more new cars which incorporate newer, more advanced technology, resulting in an automatic reduction in the total amount of pollution emitted by cars with the passing of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
It's largely a matter of timing, I think. How long are you willing to wait? According to R.L. Polk, the average age of American cars still on the road is 11.4 years.
Yes, the time frame we have in mind can result in us talking past each other. I am willing to wait quite a long time, being that the progress has been more or less steady for over 25 years now. My beater car, a 1993 Ford Escort, already had fuel injection (carburetors were already a thing of the past) and quite a bit of smog plumbing (for one example a vapor line from fuel tank to canister which feeds into air filter and back into engine to keep fuel vapors out of the atmosphere) and a catalytic converter.

So, taking this longer view, I submit that an 11.4 year old car is quite advanced as far as emission control is concerned. I admit I have not kept abreast of developments in that area; I would assume that further advances have been made in 11.4 years, but still maintain that we were doing damn well 11.4 years ago.

If you have other information which contradicts my assumptions, I am ready to listen with an open mind.

By the way, my beater Ford Escort finally failed its smog test for the first time, at 22 years of age, the other day. I was able to spend $225 on repairs in order to get it to pass - the main item being replacing the exhaust manifold gasket. The car has 182,000 miles - rather low mileage for its age.
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Old 10-22-2014, 05:51 AM
 
39,218 posts, read 40,596,564 times
Reputation: 16081
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
I think it may be time to revisit those rules,...
So I would be forced to add pollution controls on a perfectly good truck? My reaction is going to be scrap it, while it's a perfectly good truck as it sits it would be pointless investing that kind of money into it. It's unlikely anyone would be interested in buying it for any price.

Now there is one less truck on the market because I'm going to go buy a newer one which has a huge environmental footprint to manufacture. That's neither sound environmental or economic policy.
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Old 10-22-2014, 07:59 AM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,837,177 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
So I would be forced to add pollution controls on a perfectly good truck? My reaction is going to be scrap it, while it's a perfectly good truck as it sits it would be pointless investing that kind of money into it. It's unlikely anyone would be interested in buying it for any price.

Now there is one less truck on the market because I'm going to go buy a newer one which has a huge environmental footprint to manufacture. That's neither sound environmental or economic policy.
Sooner or later, you'll figure out it is about money, not the environment. EVs too are about money, not the environment. Money as in taxpayer money.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:22 AM
 
Location: San Antonio, TX USA
5,159 posts, read 9,677,182 times
Reputation: 7949
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post

Smart Fortwo Electric.... $24,000
Mitsubishi i-MiEV...... $21,000
Nissan Leaf..... $28,000 ..... current lease program at $199/mo
Those are all terrible cars, that would not work for the majority of people. The Mitsu is basiclly a glorified golf cart and with the rumors of them leaving the NA market I would not trust buying one.. The Smart only seats two people. The Nissan leaf is just to expensive. You can buy a new Golf TDI for under that price and get 40+ mpg out of it.
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:45 AM
 
1,915 posts, read 2,038,652 times
Reputation: 2190
There are a whole host of taxes on vehicles, and the fuel for them. Next question....
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Old 10-22-2014, 08:51 AM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, originally from SF Bay Area
29,543 posts, read 54,095,162 times
Reputation: 30767
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
So I would be forced to add pollution controls on a perfectly good truck? My reaction is going to be scrap it, while it's a perfectly good truck as it sits it would be pointless investing that kind of money into it. It's unlikely anyone would be interested in buying it for any price.

Now there is one less truck on the market because I'm going to go buy a newer one which has a huge environmental footprint to manufacture. That's neither sound environmental or economic policy.
I wouldn't worry about it. The number of 25 year old vehicles on the road is so small it's not likely to be changed. Those with a real classic are not even driving them in bad weather.
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Old 10-22-2014, 09:03 AM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,837,177 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman
"So I would be forced to add pollution controls on a perfectly good truck? My reaction is going to be scrap it, while it's a perfectly good truck as it sits it would be pointless investing that kind of money into it. It's unlikely anyone would be interested in buying it for any price.

Now there is one less truck on the market because I'm going to go buy a newer one which has a huge environmental footprint to manufacture. That's neither sound environmental or economic policy."

Hemlock140 said:

"I wouldn't worry about it. The number of 25 year old vehicles on the road is so small it's not likely to be changed. Those with a real classic are not even driving them in bad weather."

Never underestimate the people who go for bans or control. We have plenty of laws and rules on the books that apply to a relatively small segment of the population.
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Old 10-22-2014, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Florida
4,103 posts, read 4,254,190 times
Reputation: 10036
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
A couple of things. We aren't forced to buy cars. Granted, it is difficult to get around without a car - even in large cities - nobody is actually forced to buy a car. Second, although the government does implement regulations regarding mpg and pollutants, tightening those regulations might exceed the abilities of a given manufacturer and we could eventually hit an upper limit. Third, when you separate the cost or price away the source you can't really influence behavior or change. To put another way, let's say you were able to get mpg level to reach of new min of 20/mpg. Once you did that how would you influence people at the individual level? Then you run into an issue where people burning more gas have paid the same as people that burn less. - Gas taxes notwithstanding.

If you lived where I live then yes, you are forced to buy a car. Otherwise youd face heat stroke and die walking/cycling the 20 miles to work in the summer. We have no public transport here except a joke of a bus system. Heck I occasionally see an ambulance at bus stops here treating someone for heat stroke because the bus takes so long to get there.

In regards to your other point, taxing emissions also wouldn't affect peoples behavior. Im not going to stop driving to work because there is now a tax on emissions. And I don't know anyone that goes on leisure drives where I live unless its a motorcycle. We don't live in a high end Countryside where its leisurely to drive, we live in the burbs where you nearly get rear ended on a daily basis. All this tax would do is raise tax revenue which the government has clearly shown means nothing. They will spend in excess of tax revenues regardless of the negative publicity of an unbalanced budget. This would do nothing but throw another bill on the already struggling American family.
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Old 10-22-2014, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
15,693 posts, read 26,672,250 times
Reputation: 20272
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
This common myth has been rebutted here over and over and over again, but like "Whack-A-Mole" it just keeps popping up anew.

Unless you can provide substantial proof of your claim (hint: you can't, because it isn't true) I'm filing this under: BS
Electric Car Manufacturing's Massive Carbon Footprint

Are Electric Cars Worse for the Environment Than Hybrids?
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Old 10-22-2014, 01:05 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,837,177 times
Reputation: 11419
Was in response to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD
"This common myth has been rebutted here over and over and over again, but like "Whack-A-Mole" it just keeps popping up anew.

Unless you can provide substantial proof of your claim (hint: you can't, because it isn't true) I'm filing this under: BS "


Sorry, I can't stop laughing. Rebutts and BS always show up at the party together. A bit of gasoline fueled humor for those humor impaired.
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