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Old 11-10-2014, 03:53 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,554,868 times
Reputation: 10574

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
It comes down to who is going to control all that electricity and who is going to pay for it. The answer is the same as it has always been, the same people controlling energy now.
I don't buy your conspiracy theories. Prove your assertion or it just isn't true.
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Old 11-10-2014, 06:26 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,842,141 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
I don't buy your conspiracy theories. Prove your assertion or it just isn't true.
Doesn't matter what you buy or not, it isn't for you to decide what someone else believes. If you can prove it isn't true, go for it, otherwise it remains as stated.
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Old 11-10-2014, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,554,868 times
Reputation: 10574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Doesn't matter what you buy or not, it isn't for you to decide what someone else believes. If you can prove it isn't true, go for it, otherwise it remains as stated.
That isn't how it works. You keep falling back on the same logical fallacy. Logical debate demands that a person who makes an assertion... in this case your statement "Here is the thing often ignored when it comes to solar and wind energy, look who is controlling the solar and wind energy systems. The very same people controlling the coal and oil."... must provide evidence to prove the assertion or else the assertion is thrown out.

This is called the Burden of Proof. Fallacy: Burden of Proof This concept is a key principle of our legal system, in which a prosecutor must prove their case beyond any reasonable doubt.

In other words, it is not up to the challenger to prove the assertion false. It is up to the person making the assertion to prove their statement is true.

I have reasonable doubt that the statement you posted is valid. Or true. Or anything but a product of your imagination. And the fact that you didn't produce proof after being challenged simply says to me that you can't.

So prove it, or stop saying it.
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Old 11-11-2014, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Central Florida
2,063 posts, read 1,857,773 times
Reputation: 1917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
An interesting article.

Defra admits it cannot say how much farmland solar power is affecting | Environment | The Guardian

Part of the interest is regulations and subsidies affected without hard data. Is there something going on other than a concern about farmlands being removed from production and instead being dedicated to solar energy?

I thought the best place for a solar panel is the desert?
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Old 11-11-2014, 08:10 AM
 
Location: california
5,627 posts, read 4,854,856 times
Reputation: 6634
If I were going to look at it from the farmer's perspective , since he's the one that struggles to survive on the land he's got, I'd say that's his business.
I have a little land but the water here is terrible and expensive ,it would make perfect sense to have a solar farm here.
I have solar and wind turbine for my self, and like it.
IMO every home with southern exposure should have solar .
I don't see making a law to that effect, but certainly incentives should be in place to to encourage it.
We are a people that use electric power ,it stands to reason that we should be a part of the process we consume.
Bottom line is , it's the power companies that are hurt by those getting off the grid ,it is competitive resource, power companies are going to be resisting .
Fallow the money.
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Old 11-11-2014, 09:10 AM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,842,141 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vanguardisle View Post
I thought the best place for a solar panel is the desert?
That depends on who you ask. Here there is a direct conflict with environmentalists who claim solar farms damage the very fragile desert areas and the solar panel proponents who say there is no adverse effect or if there is, we need to pay any cost to install solar farms.

Deserts are not lifeless and are very fragile environments even though they appear to be harsh and barren. Just look at the resistance to running pipelines over deserts and you can see that conflict in action.

The answer is the same as it has always been, the same people controlling energy now will be the ones controlling renewable energy. It is already happening. Incentives and credits are being reduced and fee are being imposed for grid tied systems. That money isn't going into the pockets of those with solar panels on their roofs or properties, it finds its way back to the very people now selling conventional energy sources. While some people can't understand that or simply are blind to it matters not, it is already happening.

As Spain is proving, typical solar farms aren't the answer either. They have too many pitfalls and need batteries or something to even out the fluctuations in the power grid that they introduce. In Spain they have large heliostat installations that allow for energy storage potential, something solar panel installation don't have as part of their design. The huge benefit those installs in Spain have is a smaller foot print and less use of important raw materials in their construction.

It all does come back to money though and very little will change in the money flow, with large energy sellers just slowly grabbing up control over renewable just like they did for natural gas and oil.
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Old 11-11-2014, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas
13,842 posts, read 25,237,391 times
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Not much grows in the desert where I live. You could put in as many solar farms as you wanted without encroaching on farmland here(Nevada).
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Old 11-11-2014, 03:51 PM
 
Location: East of the Sun, West of the Moon
15,490 posts, read 17,657,147 times
Reputation: 30710
In New Mexico, solar arrays are located in the desert. The precious and rare farmland is reserved for building crappy subdivisions and McMansions.
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Old 11-11-2014, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,554,868 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
The answer is the same as it has always been, the same people controlling energy now will be the ones controlling renewable energy.
In fact the opposite is happening. Energy generation is being decentralized. When individual citizens have solar systems and wind systems, in in the case of one of my neighbors, hydroelectric systems, that are capable of supplying all of their own energy needs and feeding the excess into the grid, that already breaks up the monopoly.

Then when small producers set up what are essentially cottage industry energy systems that sell power to the grid, that further breaks up the monopoly. In my county so much renewable energy is now being fed into the grid that the utility is beginning to retire their own oldest and least efficient equipment. More and more they are shifting towards being the broker for electricity, rather than the sole producer of it.

In order to actually see the future, you have to turn around and look at something else besides the past for your information.
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Old 11-11-2014, 08:56 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,842,141 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
In fact the opposite is happening. Energy generation is being decentralized. When individual citizens have solar systems and wind systems, in in the case of one of my neighbors, hydroelectric systems, that are capable of supplying all of their own energy needs and feeding the excess into the grid, that already breaks up the monopoly.

Then when small producers set up what are essentially cottage industry energy systems that sell power to the grid, that further breaks up the monopoly. In my county so much renewable energy is now being fed into the grid that the utility is beginning to retire their own oldest and least efficient equipment. More and more they are shifting towards being the broker for electricity, rather than the sole producer of it.

In order to actually see the future, you have to turn around and look at something else besides the past for your information.
Didn't you just name the following:

Electric Transmission Texas
Duke Energy
Southern California Edison


as bringing huge battery storage system on-line? You sure did. It helps to keep track of your own posts.

What happens when that nice roof top solar installation sends electricity to the grid? Who controls it? To reiterate, companies like this:

Electric Transmission Texas
Duke Energy
Southern California Edison


Aren't those companies and companies like them controlling the distribution of conventional energy now? Of course they are. Will they continue to do so in the future? Of course they will.

Why would these companies invest billions in battery storage systems if they weren't going to control renewable energy systems? They wouldn't, obviously.

Now to summarize who said what: I maintain that renewable energy systems will be controlled by the same concerns that now control the distribution of conventional energy sources.

The OP says that isn't true then turns right around and cites some of the largest controllers of conventional energy distribution who are building infrastructure to do exactly what I say.
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