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Old 12-12-2014, 09:24 AM
 
Location: DC
6,530 posts, read 6,467,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberguy1950 View Post
And now it's global COOLING! Return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 29% in a year

Read more: And now it's global COOLING! Return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 29% in a year | Daily Mail Online
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Why do people think they can get away with posting lies?

Arctic Sea Ice is declining
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Old 12-12-2014, 11:42 AM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,884,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Why do people think they can get away with posting lies?

Arctic Sea Ice is declining
And? Sea Ice has always increased and decreased over time. Before large scale industrialization, sea ice was also decreasing.

If we are to accept the idea that the decrease is more rapid only (and I have yet to hear or see any evidence that claims all of the decrease is because of humans) then that means the decrease would exists anyway, just perhaps at a slower rate.

Then taking that into account, the decrease would exists no matter what and that the final result is inevitable, whatever that result might be.

It is a fact proven beyond any doubt that climate change and changes of sea ice levels happen regardless of whether or not human beings exist.

If we must accept that humans are responsible for faster climate change and changes in sea ice levels then we must also accept, since it has proven to be true, that the consensus that describes the amount of speed increase is open to "refinement".

When it comes to "consensus", convincing a group of people that something is true is not the same as proving it.

Everyone I know of accepts that the planet is experiencing climate change because it is a fact that the planet always has experienced it. Not everyone accepts the various interpretations (because they are opinions only) of the degree to which human activity will create the conditions which make the planet uninhabitable over time because to date, that timeline has changed quite often

Even the timeline by which the planet reaches a supposed "tipping point" with regard to the effect of human activity causes such damage that it creates an irreversible trend that eventually leads to the planet being uninhabitable changes quite often.

On the date the first human being walked the earth, it changed something, that too is a fact. That change was far more rapid than any other change before in relation to where the change took place. That too is a fact that everyone can believe without having to be convinced of something by consensus.

We often hear about the "consensus". Anyone bother to understand what that means in real terms? I say it means (and many others do as well, all over the planet) that a consensus is not a voluntary agreement, rather it is many people who are not truly satisfied with a statement but go along with it in the absence of better information.

As we know, better information is found every day. It is only human arrogance that the ability of man to study sciences of a blink of the eye in plant's evolution allows consensus to take place and say with some absolute assurance that the consensus of climate change is fact and not simply opinion.

So many things taught to people as "facts" have been found to be incorrect because of refinement. These are not inconsequential things. There was a time when scientists said traveling in a train over 32 miles per hour would create a vacuum and that a human would suffocate from the lack of air. That didn't last long but many believed it.

Man could never fly let alone go to the moon. There are 9 planets. There is no such thing as a black hole. These are foundations of knowledge that were espoused as absolute facts, so much so that many of these "opinions" were taught as fact to children in schools.

How many times have we read or seen that a scientist or scientists were scourged because of newly found evidence that contradicted the "consensus" only to be vindicated after years ad years of effort? Who did the scourging? Why...scientists of course.

If a fact requires convincing to be accepted, then perhaps more "refinement" is needed.

Many people confuse science with art. Consensus IMHO is the result of the art of convincing people that what you believe is the best possible solution and that additional effort to find a different solution (or statement) isn't really worth the effort.

The harder one has to try to convince others that what they say is an absolute, the more there is a reason to find out if it needs "refinement".

IMO, as used so often in discussions, "refinement" is just another way to say whatever one wants to say and then never have to account for errors and gloss over complete fabrications of fact.
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Old 12-12-2014, 12:56 PM
 
Location: DC
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Sea Ice in the Arctic is declining. Simple.
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Old 12-12-2014, 05:05 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,884,402 times
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Sea ice in the Antarctic is increasing. Just as simple.
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Old 12-13-2014, 07:23 AM
 
Location: DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Sea ice in the Antarctic is increasing. Just as simple.
Even if true, so what?
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Old 12-13-2014, 11:14 AM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,884,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Sea Ice in the Arctic is declining. Simple.
Agreed, even if true, so what- indeed.
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Old 12-13-2014, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,639,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
There is an additional factor -- Antarctica is from a climate standpoint an isolated area. The ocean currents are generally circular down there and there is no close land mass. To a large extent what happens in Antarctic is interesting but not particularly meaningful from a climate standpoint.
According to those who study deep sea currents, this is completely wrong. Surface currents are only part of the story.
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Old 12-13-2014, 03:51 PM
 
Location: DC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Agreed, even if true, so what- indeed.
An ice free Arctic probably means the end of the polar bear. Some people care about that. An ice free Arctic also means that the Greenland Ice Sheet will be melting fairly quickly. That matters because loss of the Greenland Ice Sheet would mean sea levels would increase by about 20 feet.

You didn't answer my question.
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Old 12-13-2014, 03:53 PM
 
Location: DC
6,530 posts, read 6,467,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
According to those who study deep sea currents, this is completely wrong. Surface currents are only part of the story.
Surface current are only part of the story, but my story is correct.
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Old 12-14-2014, 05:05 PM
 
Location: New York Area
15,954 posts, read 6,280,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Why hasn't the ice in the Arctic vanished?

Because of bad data sets, betcha. The fact is the ice is still there and more of it now than the last time some prediction about all the ice vanishing was made.

What you'll never hear: "We were wrong, the ice didn't vanish because we predicted something based on little more than voodoo climatology."
Ever since I read a summary of Hansen's "greenhouse effect" testimony I considered AGW to be somewhere between hilarious and an elaborate fraud.
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