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Old 12-06-2014, 11:02 AM
 
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Underwater Robot Makes Puzzling Find on Antarctic Sea Ice Thickness - NBC News

Seems there might even be an increase in the amount of ice in Antarctica. What the article points out is more important than if there is more or less ice. The fact that the measurement of the ice hasn't been accurate yet decisions are being made based on data that hasn't been verified or even understood.

If we don't know how much ice there is then how can we say that there is less ice or that climate change is reducing the amount of ice in Antarctica?

From the article:

"Almost all of the sea ice that forms during the Antarctic winter melts during the summer, so scientists had assumed it never grew very thick. "

"scientists had assumed..." Nothing like basing entire arguments on assumptions.

It is things like this that cast doubt on what is so often used to promote certain strategies and causes. That is not to say climate change isn't an issue but when a significant part of the argument seems to be based on unverified information or assumptions, then the rest is a house of cards.
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Old 12-06-2014, 11:30 AM
 
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1. Sea ice isn't the same as land ice-- sea ice is seasonal, land ice is not.
2. Because of its seasonality, sea ice only reflects heat from the Earth when it is cold, not when it is hot.
3. The thickness of the ice was not part of their 'entire argument'... it simply isn't pertinent because Antarctic sea ice is a poor climate regulator.
4. The theory of AGW is not dependent on whether or not sea ice is increasing in Antarctica. Dismissing the entire history of climatology as a failure because of this would be like dismissing your entire life as a failure because you turned up late to work one day.
5. The sea ice might be increasing during the winters, but it is also melting much faster during Antarctic summers: Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis | Sea ice data updated daily with one-day lag
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Old 12-06-2014, 02:08 PM
 
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They can't predict weather day to day, but!
Just follow the money to Al Gores house.
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Old 12-06-2014, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,607,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
1. Sea ice isn't the same as land ice-- sea ice is seasonal, land ice is not.
2. Because of its seasonality, sea ice only reflects heat from the Earth when it is cold, not when it is hot.
3. The thickness of the ice was not part of their 'entire argument'... it simply isn't pertinent because Antarctic sea ice is a poor climate regulator.
4. The theory of AGW is not dependent on whether or not sea ice is increasing in Antarctica. Dismissing the entire history of climatology as a failure because of this would be like dismissing your entire life as a failure because you turned up late to work one day.
5. The sea ice might be increasing during the winters, but it is also melting much faster during Antarctic summers: Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis | Sea ice data updated daily with one-day lag
Excellent points. all. It's nice to see someone relate to the actual science of this issue instead of trying to turn it into another political football.

With satellite instruments we are able to measure such things as the area of sea ice and glaciers with more accuracy than ever before. And scientists have been able to assemble decades of data into time-lapse visualization of what is happening to our planet that should convince anyone who watches them of the severity of the global issues we face.

Unfortunately there is a large faction who do not care about the facts, and does not watch the time-lapse videos because their minds aren't open to be changed. If they were, they wouldn't be so quick to pounce on every oddity or anomaly or new discovery as a "gotcha" to say it's all nonsense.
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Old 12-06-2014, 04:51 PM
 
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And now it's global COOLING! Return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 29% in a year

Read more: And now it's global COOLING! Return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 29% in a year | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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Old 12-06-2014, 06:17 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,868,414 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
1. Sea ice isn't the same as land ice-- sea ice is seasonal, land ice is not.
2. Because of its seasonality, sea ice only reflects heat from the Earth when it is cold, not when it is hot.
3. The thickness of the ice was not part of their 'entire argument'... it simply isn't pertinent because Antarctic sea ice is a poor climate regulator.
4. The theory of AGW is not dependent on whether or not sea ice is increasing in Antarctica. Dismissing the entire history of climatology as a failure because of this would be like dismissing your entire life as a failure because you turned up late to work one day.
5. The sea ice might be increasing during the winters, but it is also melting much faster during Antarctic summers: Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis | Sea ice data updated daily with one-day lag
No one is dismissing anything. The point is that the sea ice was underestimated because no one had yet verified the mass that existed. In typical fashion, assumptions were made, as is often the case only to find out later that they were wrong.

If you can, please show were the entire history of climatology was cited as a failure.

There we go, bring up something that wasn't said and then explain why it isn't so.
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Old 12-06-2014, 06:20 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,868,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberguy1950 View Post
And now it's global COOLING! Return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 29% in a year

Read more: And now it's global COOLING! Return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 29% in a year | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Hold on, you just caused a few head gaskets to blow..
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Old 12-06-2014, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,607,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberguy1950 View Post
And now it's global COOLING! Return of Arctic ice cap as it grows by 29% in a year.
Again, if you aren't playing political games, it isn't a Gotcha at all, just a new data set to incorporate into the scientific investigation.

More than 20 years ago climatologists predicted that Global Warming would lead to Global Climate Change, with more extreme weather on both ends of the scale, including hotter hots and colder colds and dramatic changes in traditional weather patterns, including bigger storms that would affect every corner of the planet.

That prediction, sadly, is coming true.

Look at the summer ice pattern for the same area and it's horrifying. The retreat of summer ice is threatening all the wildlife in the area, near to opening a clear ice channel from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and threatening to trigger an irreversible melting of permafrost, which will release huge amounts of methane, which could push the planet past the tipping point on being able to control greenhouse gases, and hence, global warming.
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Old 12-06-2014, 06:49 PM
 
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Add there we have it, another new data set! Make assumptions and then find out things aren't really as claimed? No problem, use another data set.
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Old 12-06-2014, 07:00 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,868,414 times
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Why hasn't the ice in the Arctic vanished?

Because of bad data sets, betcha. The fact is the ice is still there and more of it now than the last time some prediction about all the ice vanishing was made.

What you'll never hear: "We were wrong, the ice didn't vanish because we predicted something based on little more than voodoo climatology."

By now, the earth was supposed to be so warm we should all be living in refrigerators and every house within 200 miles of the coasts would be floating on pontoons.

The same people that will argue to near death about evolution of the species to include how human beings came to be are the same ones that won't believe that evolution of the planet includes climate changes that make what is going on today look like a chemistry experiment at the Exporatorium.

Of course there is climate change, and of course humans contribute to it. That has been going on since human beings walked the earth and climate change will continue after humans are all gone.

The amount of ice at the poles has changed since they existed. Only recently have humans figured out they could blame it all on people and make money doing so.
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