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Old 05-25-2015, 09:26 PM
 
1,770 posts, read 1,197,961 times
Reputation: 1686

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
"That is because of socio-ecomic issues, not diet"

Pretty much everything does come down to socio-econmic issues. True.

Cruelty can continue because people are brain washed into thinking that large scale, intensive animal farming are in some was "part or the circle of life" in some happy Disney inspired scenario.

Compassion can prevail when people demand justice for those who have no voice. When people realize where their meat comes and how a beautiful animal became a steak and say, "wow, that's ugly".

There is nothing pretty or natural about slaughter. Or veal crates. Or gestational crates. Or agricultural specific laws that permit a baby piglet to be castrated with out anesthesia.

Compassion can not coexist when cruelty prevails. Or when people close their eyes.
Well said!
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Old 06-01-2015, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
20,385 posts, read 37,685,004 times
Reputation: 22517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy View Post
52 percent of land in the US is agricultural land. 35 percent of land in the US is grazing land. That means that 17 percent of the land is used for growing plant food. About 5/8 of the plant food grown is fed to animals. That means that roughly 6.4 percent of land is used to feed people in the US plant food. About 30 percent of calories that an American eats are from animal products. This means that to feed the US on a vegan diet would require about 9.1 percent of the land area of the US or only 17.5 percent of the agricultural land we use now.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/249896...summary_1_.pdf

If you feel weak on a vegetarian diet, then you are doing something wrong. There is no reason that dairy and eggs would be that different from meat, dairy and eggs. You probably shocked your system by going about it in the wrong way.



That is because of socio-economic issues, not diet.
I didn't "feel weak" on a vegetarian diet (which I tried twice, by the way); I got sickly. There's a difference. And whether it fits into your ideology or not, people are different, and the same diet does not work for everyone.

By the way, I've been seriously into research since the only three reasons I was allowed out of my room after bedtime when I was a child barely old enough to read were bathroom, sick/injured, or to look something up in the encyclopaedia. When I do something, I research the heck out of it, and trust me (though you won't because it doesn't feed what you want to believe and facts never impact religion all that much), it was a balanced vegetarian diet both times.

Many years ago I got acupunctured. The acupuncturist that I went to had trained in this country, but being serious about it, had also gone to China and trained there. When I first went to him, he took a medical history so he would know how to proceed, and when he got to diet towards the end of his questions, I told him that I ate read meat, that my body told me that's what I needed, and he might as well know I wasn't going to quit. "Good!" he said. "Everything I'm seeing says that you need it." He told me that people had some weird ideas about Chinese medicine, which is really all about balance, and that while he was a vegetarian himself, some people need to NOT be vegetarian, based on their body type. He said that some people were quite taken aback when they came to him and after examining them, he told them that what they really needed was a cheeseburger. They THOUGHT they were eating a healthy diet, but for their body type, a vegetarian diet was the exact opposite. Same with me. I know, I know, it doesn't fit the ideology so it can't possibly be true. But it is.

And if you think there's no difference from egg to egg and dairy to dairy, never mind meat, then you don't know a lot, and you definitely haven't been involved in or even have a clue about the raising of any of it!

Sheena 12, if the attitude towards people and life that I've seen expressed in your posts is what comes of a vegetarian diet, frankly, I'd run screaming in the opposite direction and grab a steak so fast your head would spin.

None of which defends cruel practices in farming or anything else to do with animals, either four legged or two (you didn't forget that people are animals, too, did you, as so many "animal rights advocates" give every evidence of doing?), which can and should be avoided be avoided - which is why I work hands on in rescue and animal welfare. It's just important not to listen to the P.T. Barnums of the animal rights world who have a vested interest in the open pocketbooks of the ones born every minute.
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Old 06-01-2015, 07:39 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
18,581 posts, read 23,112,945 times
Reputation: 48552
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
I didn't "feel weak" on a vegetarian diet (which I tried twice, by the way); I got sickly. There's a difference. And whether it fits into your ideology or not, people are different, and the same diet does not work for everyone.

By the way, I've been seriously into research since the only three reasons I was allowed out of my room after bedtime when I was a child barely old enough to read were bathroom, sick/injured, or to look something up in the encyclopaedia. When I do something, I research the heck out of it, and trust me (though you won't because it doesn't feed what you want to believe and facts never impact religion all that much), it was a balanced vegetarian diet both times.

Many years ago I got acupunctured. The acupuncturist that I went to had trained in this country, but being serious about it, had also gone to China and trained there. When I first went to him, he took a medical history so he would know how to proceed, and when he got to diet towards the end of his questions, I told him that I ate read meat, that my body told me that's what I needed, and he might as well know I wasn't going to quit. "Good!" he said. "Everything I'm seeing says that you need it." He told me that people had some weird ideas about Chinese medicine, which is really all about balance, and that while he was a vegetarian himself, some people need to NOT be vegetarian, based on their body type. He said that some people were quite taken aback when they came to him and after examining them, he told them that what they really needed was a cheeseburger. They THOUGHT they were eating a healthy diet, but for their body type, a vegetarian diet was the exact opposite. Same with me. I know, I know, it doesn't fit the ideology so it can't possibly be true. But it is.

And if you think there's no difference from egg to egg and dairy to dairy, never mind meat, then you don't know a lot, and you definitely haven't been involved in or even have a clue about the raising of any of it!

Sheena 12, if the attitude towards people and life that I've seen expressed in your posts is what comes of a vegetarian diet, frankly, I'd run screaming in the opposite direction and grab a steak so fast your head would spin.

None of which defends cruel practices in farming or anything else to do with animals, either four legged or two (you didn't forget that people are animals, too, did you, as so many "animal rights advocates" give every evidence of doing?), which can and should be avoided be avoided - which is why I work hands on in rescue and animal welfare. It's just important not to listen to the P.T. Barnums of the animal rights world who have a vested interest in the open pocketbooks of the ones born every minute.

Not sure why you are attacking me, Texashorselady.

I have zero tolerance for animal cruelty, however I realize that a completely vegan or vegetarian diet is not possible for everyone.

I really do.

Paying more for meat that is raised and slaughtered in a more humane and less brutal fashion? I believe that is possible.
Would you agree with that? Paying a bit more would not be horrible.

As far as PETA and groups similar - I am not a fan.
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Old 06-01-2015, 11:39 PM
 
1,770 posts, read 1,197,961 times
Reputation: 1686
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady View Post
I didn't "feel weak" on a vegetarian diet (which I tried twice, by the way); I got sickly. There's a difference. And whether it fits into your ideology or not, people are different, and the same diet does not work for everyone.
The blame is entirely on you. You went about it the wrong way. It is really that simple.

Quote:
By the way, I've been seriously into research since the only three reasons I was allowed out of my room after bedtime when I was a child barely old enough to read were bathroom, sick/injured, or to look something up in the encyclopaedia. When I do something, I research the heck out of it, and trust me (though you won't because it doesn't feed what you want to believe and facts never impact religion all that much), it was a balanced vegetarian diet both times.
Explain to me how the majority of the third world eats almost no meat then? What you are saying is nonsensical. You probably shocked your system. You went about it too quickly or didn't stick it out, that is my guess. How long were you vegetarian for? The other possibility is coincidence, you happened to get sick soon after you stopped eating meat and you associated it with that.

If I have a veggie burger that is cooked on the same grill as other burgers I sometimes get sick. I would probably get quite sick if I started eating meat. Does that mean I can't? Absolutely not, it means my body isn't used to it.

Quote:
Many years ago I got acupunctured. The acupuncturist that I went to had trained in this country, but being serious about it, had also gone to China and trained there. When I first went to him, he took a medical history so he would know how to proceed, and when he got to diet towards the end of his questions, I told him that I ate read meat, that my body told me that's what I needed, and he might as well know I wasn't going to quit. "Good!" he said. "Everything I'm seeing says that you need it." He told me that people had some weird ideas about Chinese medicine, which is really all about balance, and that while he was a vegetarian himself, some people need to NOT be vegetarian, based on their body type. He said that some people were quite taken aback when they came to him and after examining them, he told them that what they really needed was a cheeseburger. They THOUGHT they were eating a healthy diet, but for their body type, a vegetarian diet was the exact opposite. Same with me. I know, I know, it doesn't fit the ideology so it can't possibly be true. But it is.
Great to know that you take nutrition advice from an acupuncturist, haha.

Quote:
And if you think there's no difference from egg to egg and dairy to dairy, never mind meat, then you don't know a lot, and you definitely haven't been involved in or even have a clue about the raising of any of it!
I never said that.

Quote:
None of which defends cruel practices in farming or anything else to do with animals, either four legged or two (you didn't forget that people are animals, too, did you, as so many "animal rights advocates" give every evidence of doing?), which can and should be avoided be avoided - which is why I work hands on in rescue and animal welfare. It's just important not to listen to the P.T. Barnums of the animal rights world who have a vested interest in the open pocketbooks of the ones born every minute.
When you say things like this, you sound like you feel guilty and you are trying to justify your actions.

Last edited by Iaskwhy; 06-01-2015 at 11:49 PM..
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 51,217,407 times
Reputation: 24606
I an a dedicated carnivore that cannot eat sugar or starch because of a yeast infestation in my gut. If I feed the yeast carbs the yeasts poison me with weird and wonderful alcohols and other substances. As a result I live on meat, cheese and eggs. I am actually maintaining or loosing weight on this diet despite the Agent Orange exposure in 'Nam so many decades ago.

I would like to see more Bison available. It seems to me these animals would be better adapted to the western open range then western European derived domestic cattle. I have read about some large landowners raising bison for meat. I even know of a couple of farms here in NH doing the same. Unfortunately bison meat is only available in small highly processed amounts in the big grocery stores at relatively high prices.
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Old 06-02-2015, 06:47 AM
 
2,878 posts, read 3,846,696 times
Reputation: 3080
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
"That is because of socio-ecomic issues, not diet"

Pretty much everything does come down to socio-econmic issues. True.

Cruelty can continue because people are brain washed into thinking that large scale, intensive animal farming are in some was "part or the circle of life" in some happy Disney inspired scenario.

Compassion can prevail when people demand justice for those who have no voice. When people realize where their meat comes and how a beautiful animal became a steak and say, "wow, that's ugly".

There is nothing pretty or natural about slaughter. Or veal crates. Or gestational crates. Or agricultural specific laws that permit a baby piglet to be castrated with out anesthesia.

Compassion can not coexist when cruelty prevails. Or when people close their eyes.
The reason there is large scale intensive animal farming is twofold. One is the pure fact that the current population levels are unsustainable without it. The other is desire to profit.

The first reason is as serious as the second one. Our society has moved on from the agricultural type where almost everyone farmed. Most of us are now professionals who live in the city, in counties that are WAY past their carrying capacity - both in terms of food and water. This is why you can have cities like Dallas or Phoenix or Las Vegas in places where the actual carrying capacity of the county is 100s of times less.

Socio-economic status is most definitely NOT at the core of the problem. Uncontrolled breeding most definitely is. So long as everyone has a "right" to have as many children (consumers?) as they want - the problem is just being perpetuated and enlarged. Society has so far chosen the path of allowing this to happen and hoping that technology will come up with the solution for this unlimited consumption growth. The party was fun when places like China were poor but now that they are becoming affluent and want to live just like Americans, well, it is a rude awakening. So far the technology we have come up with to solve this problem is the factory animal and chemistry-based plant farming. For this to be sustainable the pharmaceutical industry has to grow at the same speed, in order to fix all the problems the former two industries create. Despite all the cancers and all the diseases we have today, people live longer on average. Whether these are "quality" lives is a different question.

Pure fact is that people's breeding habits are supported by a cruel and destructive food chain. Couple that with a sad education system and corrupt politics and you have a recipe for disaster.
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Old 06-02-2015, 07:07 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 51,217,407 times
Reputation: 24606
ognend - So far we have avoided the inevitable. Other places have not. Why do you think the slaughters are happening in the third world countries that do not have the capacity to feed the result of having large numbers of children that survive long enough to have large numbers of children of their own? Humanity has a rough patch ahead before they learn that continuous population growth is an indulgence they cannot afford.

We have to figure out a way of disconnecting population growth from economic growth. None of the economists I have ever read have done this. All base societal success and industrial growth on an increasing population even in the technologically developed countries.

I believe there is a way of having economic growth with a constant or decreasing population by creating a more even wealth distribution where the growth is making the lower income people able to consume at a higher level by increasing their income but not their numbers. This will be difficult to achieve as the wealthy see their economic and social privileges become eroded by the redistribution of income and access of the formerly lower classes.
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