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Old 05-19-2016, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,595 posts, read 5,479,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
not quite...
Roughly 12,000 MWs available at existing dams

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/water/pdfs/npd_report.pdf

U.S. Hydropower Potential from Existing Non-powered Dams | Department of Energy

I seem to recall The Germans run @600-800 Mws of hydro and @2500Mws of pumped storage
Interesting. I did not know that.

The greens don't like dams either, though.

Dammed if we do, dammed if we don't.
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Old 05-19-2016, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,592 posts, read 8,507,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Interesting. I did not know that.

The greens don't like dams either, though.

Dammed if we do, dammed if we don't.
Wack-A-loons even have groups and make movies about it.......


https://www.internationalrivers.org/...i-dam-movement

DamNation*(2014) - Rotten Tomatoes
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Old 05-19-2016, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,595 posts, read 5,479,327 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Wack-A-loons even have groups and make movies about it.......


https://www.internationalrivers.org/...i-dam-movement

DamNation*(2014) - Rotten Tomatoes
There's also 180 Degrees South. I guess they'd rather have coal and gas plants in Patagonia.
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Old 05-20-2016, 06:36 AM
 
Location: DC
6,512 posts, read 6,438,531 times
Reputation: 3114
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
not quite...
Roughly 12,000 MWs available at existing dams

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/water/pdfs/npd_report.pdf

U.S. Hydropower Potential from Existing Non-powered Dams | Department of Energy

I seem to recall The Germans run @600-800 Mws of hydro and @2500Mws of pumped storage
That's a totally misleading assessment. The DOE work specifically did not include economic feasibility. Hydroelectric facilities have high first costs and the economic feasibility of small dams is almost non-existent.
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Old 05-20-2016, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,592 posts, read 8,507,933 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
That's a totally misleading assessment. The DOE work specifically did not include economic feasibility. Hydroelectric facilities have high first costs and the economic feasibility of small dams is almost non-existent.
?

Really? We made this one work...........Seems like you just don't know everything about power generation in the real world doesn't it

Mitchell Dam - Iowa Energy Center

http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/rep...f2e568a8b.html
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Old 05-20-2016, 06:07 PM
 
Location: DC
6,512 posts, read 6,438,531 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
?

Really? We made this one work...........Seems like you just don't know everything about power generation in the real world doesn't it

Mitchell Dam - Iowa Energy Center

Repairs nearly complete at Mitchell Mill Dam | Local News | wcfcourier.com
One out of thousands? You think that makes the rest finicially feasible?
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Old 05-21-2016, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
One out of thousands? You think that makes the rest finicially feasible?
as feasible as most renewables currently in vogue...
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Old 05-21-2016, 09:17 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,835,700 times
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Something that sort of gets missed in this . . . is that there is not some epic struggle for More! More! More! power . . . or energy (which in the case of electricity is just Power X Time.

I know that flies against everything we have been conditioned to hear since younger days -- if we [are] children of the 1970s or after . . . but really it is true.

We all heard of the "Energy Crisis" since 1973 or so. But there NEVER was a crisis or shortage or whatever of "energy." It was JUST Oil. It was just marketed as "Energy" so we did not do the obvious and just quit Oil. The US hit its Peak Production of Oil about 1970 / 71, and had been curving down since, until the recent bump (and now bust) of Frack Oil. And the ONLY reason Oil was a "crisis" was because it runs the ICEs (Internal Combustion Engines) we love so much for Transportation.

So back to Electricity. It is Surplus most of the time in much of the US. Entire plants are taken off line (especially in Spring and Fall) for months at time for repair and rebuilds -- no Crisis, no Problem, all Planned and part of the game.

But we are talking about Surplus -- which is a rough part of any conventional corporate capitalist economic plan. So now take a jump with me -- to what Economics are all about. If you have any formal Economics training -- they always start with a base line . . . goes something like this . . . "Economics is the study of _______ Resources." Yunno what that "Blank" is? Scarce. Economic is the study of Scarce Resources. But we are talking about SURPLUS. That is where things fall apart. Great Depression = Surplus. 2008 Housing Crisis = Surplus. Present US Oil (Frack Oil) Crash = Surplus. It is SURPLUS we cannot deal with.

Same here in the here and now. IF Renewable gets fully built out -- the Problems will not be Shortage. Nor need for Storage -- but rather SURPLUS. And what and how to manage that. That is what Germany's "problem" (not really a Problem) within the scope of this thread -- SURPLUS. The surplus is taking the Old Generation off line faster than expected and planned for.

Maybe think of the US as having a Daily Free-Fall of ALL the Energy we wish to collect. (Called Sunshine). (mho) The hard part will be how to manage the Surplus. If you are not familiar with the Old Testament Story of "Manna," maybe consider it? Daily all the food they needed fell from the sky. But they could not "store" it . . . but they did not need to. Because EVERY DAY all the Energy/Food we/they need(ed) comes from the sky. Same-Same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manna

Last edited by Philip T; 05-21-2016 at 09:30 PM..
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Old 05-22-2016, 07:31 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,592 posts, read 8,507,933 times
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^^^^^^^^^
Not really a surplus. The thing about Americans is that we are used to having Electricity available at the switch of a Switch, instantly no matter if it's 1kw or 10,000Kw. To do that you have to enough resources running to respond to that demand and maintain 60 Hz. That means having lots of plants running at lower load ranges with enough ROTATING MASS to supply the required demand and hold 60 cycles...Lean to hard on the grid thinking wind and solar can do that and you'll start cascading failures across the country...
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Old 05-22-2016, 03:08 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,835,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
^^^^^^^^^
Not really a surplus. The thing about Americans is that we are used to having Electricity available at the switch of a Switch, instantly no matter if it's 1kw or 10,000Kw. To do that you have to enough resources running to respond to that demand and maintain 60 Hz. That means having lots of plants running at lower load ranges with enough ROTATING MASS to supply the required demand and hold 60 cycles...Lean to hard on the grid thinking wind and solar can do that and you'll start cascading failures across the country...


Oh yeah, Generating Capacity is Surplus. WAAYYY Surplus. There are entire Coal plants "mothballed" and heading towards or in Bankruptcy, already.

Even the EIA (usually Growth for the Sake of Growth) is projecting little need to add ahead, (and mho is WAY under estimating yet more renewable).

===============

and No. Really. No "cascade failures."

We set the Relay(s) in the OPPOSITE Direction of a Cascade.

Really. Required to by the NERC under PRC (Protection and Control) Audits.

No. Cascade. Failures.

Whole list here -- Reliability Standards

==============

But locally -- when there is a High Demand AND a Low Supply -- there is really just a Voltage Drop. That is worse case. Below a certain threshold, the local relays can open those local circuits. With Automatic Tap Changers, local voltages can be shifted up and down.

Harder part is actually the reverse -- when you have TOO MUCH local Renewable increasing the Local Grid Voltage -- because then the Automatic Cut-offs on the Inverters kick in and knock it off line for 5 minutes. The the Local Voltages go back down to normal. Then the inverters come back on. Then the Voltage spikes again. Then the automatic cut-offs trigger . . . . Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

But if it ever gets to the point that a grid operator would like to have variable loads (aka "load shedding") there will be large commercial and industrial customers lining up for the cost savings that would be offered to them.

To use that -- a typical Heavy Commercial or Industrial site could just have a Dual Service (many do, already for Reliability). They could have a Premium Pay Service Connection for the critical loads, and a Discount, Low-Priority for optional loads.

Many Electricity Users are not really the Fainting Princesses some folks would imagine them/us to be.
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