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Traditional Math generally comes out with Big Dam Hydro is the cheapest.
Once the Concrete is in, it is there for 100 years (or more).
Zero Fuel Costs.
Maybe needs mechanical and electrical repairs/upgrades on a 25 year basis or so.
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Big Wind:
If you count the 30% Recovery.gov Treasure Grants (end this year) AND the 2.2 cents per kWh Investment Tax Credit that Big Wind gets, it may be in the range of Hydro.
That 2.2 cent tax credit alone drives the cost of wind up to the cost of hydro, the Douglas County, Washington PUD charges 2.3 cents per KWH, neighboring Chelan County PUD, 2.7 cents.
That 2.2 cent tax credit alone drives the cost of wind up to the cost of hydro, the Douglas County, Washington PUD charges 2.3 cents per KWH, neighboring Chelan County PUD, 2.7 cents.
Hydro power is swell if the dam is up or you don't need one. If however you are building a dam for hydro it is unlikely to be competitive with wind and solar. The latest study out of Lazard indicates that wind is now pretty competitive without subsidies. With subsidies it is a big winner.
I would also note that there are also utility class solar getting down under 3 cents per kwh. As the prices for wind and solar reach these low levels it becomes feasible for a utility to simply add capability equivalent to their base capability to take advantage of the total cost of the renewable being less than the operating cost of the fueled plants.
This will lead to solar in the sun belt and wind in the Midwest. And it is likely that both will find economic to favor cross country interconnect to enable use of excess renewable.
The link from the OP says that an exception has been granted that allows high speed turbines. I believe that is the point of this thread.
Actually the "exception" is that older high speed turbines are not replaced or shut down when we find there were flaws in the initial environmental work. I think most of the problems are in the Altamont Pass area of California. Over a reasonable amount to time those older turbines will be replaced. Modern commercial scale wind turbine rotate at about 12 rpm. In addition the towers don't provide perches for the bird.
I heard from an audubon member that the ones on the ridge across from Whitefish bay (Mich) in Canada were totally decimating the bat population. Second hand info but have no cause to disbelieve. I doubt the wind farm companies are putting the info out there unless forced.
The world needs population control. That's the bottom line.
I heard from an audubon member that the ones on the ridge across from Whitefish bay (Mich) in Canada were totally decimating the bat population. Second hand info but have no cause to disbelieve. I doubt the wind farm companies are putting the info out there unless forced.
The world needs population control. That's the bottom line.
Hydro power is swell if the dam is up or you don't need one. If however you are building a dam for hydro it is unlikely to be competitive with wind and solar. The latest study out of Lazard indicates that wind is now pretty competitive without subsidies. With subsidies it is a big winner.
I would also note that there are also utility class solar getting down under 3 cents per kwh. As the prices for wind and solar reach these low levels it becomes feasible for a utility to simply add capability equivalent to their base capability to take advantage of the total cost of the renewable being less than the operating cost of the fueled plants.
This will lead to solar in the sun belt and wind in the Midwest. And it is likely that both will find economic to favor cross country interconnect to enable use of excess renewable.
There's still the problem of needing 100% backup capacity for windless nights. Germany has huge amounts of wind and solar on their grid, but they still need all of their conventional plants for dark calm periods. That means that the capital costs for German electricity are approximately 2x. It'd be like owning a car that somehow ran on wind and solar. You'd still need a backup car for calm nights. So your capital costs for transportation are now 2x thanks to the wind and solar car.
The bottom line: until there's a cheap way to store enormous amounts of intermittent electricity from wind and solar, it's not going to be able to make up the backbone of the electricity system.
There's still the problem of needing 100% backup capacity for windless nights. Germany has huge amounts of wind and solar on their grid, but they still need all of their conventional plants for dark calm periods. That means that the capital costs for German electricity are approximately 2x. It'd be like owning a car that somehow ran on wind and solar. You'd still need a backup car for calm nights. So your capital costs for transportation are now 2x thanks to the wind and solar car.
The bottom line: until there's a cheap way to store enormous amounts of intermittent electricity from wind and solar, it's not going to be able to make up the backbone of the electricity system.
This is a naive myth that people with no understanding of utility plant operation and dispatch keep repeating because to them it sounds logical. Redundancy in a grid system is usually dictated by the largest plants, typically 1000 MW nuclear plants. The reserve easily covers the variable nature of renewables.
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