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Indeed, I knew from the very first post, that the OP was interested in homesteading, not "farming". But many people do not differentiate between the two; the difference is more than just one of scale.
OP, I'm going to be the spoiler here. I say, "go for it". But here's how you should do this:
First, the wife is going to have to understand that horses are simply out of the equation, at least for the first few years. After that, she'll have to make the horses pay their own way, by giving pony rides, riding lessons, brood mares/stud service, etc. You really don't need to "saddle" yourself with large animals and large expenses.
Next, will yourself to live on only the acreage you really need. Did you know you can raise all the food for a family of 4 on less than a quarter acre? Why pay a mortgage on 10 or 20 acres, when 1 or 2 will do? You need to limit your debt, and you won't do that with horses OR large acreages!
I actually did know that - at least, I have read articles about it. That said, the last article I read about it had the miracle quarter-acre farm in some location of southern California where growing season is all year long.
We sometimes stay with friends when we travel to their area and they have 55 acres. No way do we need that much property. And you know what? We really are interested in homesteading... and selling the excess. But that is still farming, even if on a small scale. It's definitely more than "gardening".
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Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah
Then, what are you willing to give up to make this dream come true? Can you do without cable TV?
Moved out in 2005, haven't had cable a day since. Yes.
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Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah
Would you be willing to trade your smartphones and data plans in for an inexpensive TracFone?
I would be willing to take my cell phone and smash it into a pile of useless transistors with a sledgehammer. I hate being tethered to this thing.
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Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah
Can you do without wi-fi?
If we're not running a business in any way, yes.
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Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah
Trade in your new cars for a used pickup?
I hate new cars. I'd take a crew cab 1978 Ford F-350 long bed over our 2014 Prius v any day.
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Originally Posted by Nor'Eastah
Lastly, be resolved that one of you will have to continue to work full-time, and this is usually the wife. Or you could both work part-time. But a reliable income is going to be a necessity.
I fail to understand why this is, though I'm sure we would still continue working if for no other reason than because we enjoy performing music (that's what we do right now) and we wouldn't want our abilities to atrophy through lack of use.
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Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst
If you want to farm the 'easy' way...Ornamentals, flowers and such.
Fresh flowers, dried flowers (or herbs too), gourds, and so on.
We've considered that. My wife and I complement each other well where this is concerned. I prefer growing vegetables, she prefers growing flowers.
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Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst
But, if you want the 'farming' experience and activities with out the demand of being at the right place at the right time, go with flowers.
Your wife might learn how to make essential oils, infusions or some other cosmetics that use flowers.
lavandar was mentioned, very popular in soaps and food.
Sounds good. Someone has to grow flowers.
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Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst
So...having chickens is indeed worth it....besides, nothing beats a homestead fried egg fresh from the coop.
They have a taste advantage over store-bought eggs, for sure. It may be slight, but it's noticeable in a blind test.
Hey OP, you can do this. My wife and I purchase apples from a homesteading couple. They have 10 acres, 5 with cherries, and 5 with apples. Their yard looks like a postcard from paradise during the spring. They also have rows of vegetables for their own use. During spring they plant their own veggies, and then relax. Once the fruit starts to grow, they apply pesticide to keep the bugs from eating the fruit, and prune away any dead or broken branches. They fertilize only a couple times per year. Once the fruit is ripe, they pick, wash, and glaze it in wax. They sell some at the farmers market. Some they can, freeze, and dry. The rest the wife bakes into the best pies you can imagine. The pies sell for $10.00 a piece and there is a waiting list.
They have the winters off, and most of the spring and summer. Fall is really the busiest time for them. They earn enough that they don't have to have any other jobs. They do raise their own meat rabbits, and grow their own veggies. Fruit is more fore giving as it all doesn't ripen the same. If you have an acre of corn, you have to harvest that acre all at once. Don't be fooled by the small size of the farm, if I remember correctly, they are producing about 700 to 800 apples, and about 3 thousand cherries a year.
During the spring, they rent out the farm for weddings.
The only negative they had, was that it took 5 years for the trees to really start producing fruit.
My wife and I are looking into the same model for us. She LOVES to bake, and I prefer working overhead, to bending over all day. Plus, the only special equipment they use is a 4 wheeler with a trailer, some ladders, and an old commercial panel van they bought from the school district for $800.00.
I grew up on a dairy farm, and it ran on a very tight daily schedule. Cows had to be milked twice a day, so the males were up in the middle of the night for a few hours, and back at it again 12 hours later. Fractured sleep patterns, and little social life, though there were lots of family friends. No vacation was possible without hiring others to take over the milking. Plus, there was hay to pitch, hay-baling, and.... damn, it was hard work!
Crop farming is different and less demanding on the schedule, but it still takes tremendous commitment. Relaxing? Well, it is probably spiritually relaxing for those who truly love it. Physically? No! But rural living does have its own rewards away from city traffic. It's just that so few people are truly cut out for it.
Hey OP, you can do this. My wife and I purchase apples from a homesteading couple. They have 10 acres, 5 with cherries, and 5 with apples. Their yard looks like a postcard from paradise during the spring. They also have rows of vegetables for their own use. During spring they plant their own veggies, and then relax. Once the fruit starts to grow, they apply pesticide to keep the bugs from eating the fruit, and prune away any dead or broken branches. They fertilize only a couple times per year. Once the fruit is ripe, they pick, wash, and glaze it in wax. They sell some at the farmers market. Some they can, freeze, and dry. The rest the wife bakes into the best pies you can imagine. The pies sell for $10.00 a piece and there is a waiting list.
They have the winters off, and most of the spring and summer. Fall is really the busiest time for them. They earn enough that they don't have to have any other jobs. They do raise their own meat rabbits, and grow their own veggies. Fruit is more fore giving as it all doesn't ripen the same. If you have an acre of corn, you have to harvest that acre all at once. Don't be fooled by the small size of the farm, if I remember correctly, they are producing about 700 to 800 apples, and about 3 thousand cherries a year.
During the spring, they rent out the farm for weddings.
The only negative they had, was that it took 5 years for the trees to really start producing fruit.
While a glorious outlook on a small acreage ...
methinks that this poster doesn't have a clue as to how much work and resources goes into this wonderful scenario.
citing "the only negative they had" as 5 years from planting to "really start producing fruit" could be very misleading. According to industry reports from fruit grower's news ... the average cost of preparing the ground, planting and tree stock costs ... for an apple orchard is $60,000 per ACRE. (source: Western Fruit Grower, August 2016 edition, article about the Apple Grower of the Year). Even with the latest orchard techniques of a "wall of trees" similar to a grape arbor to achieve higher density tree production, it's still a lot of money upfront and years before you see a return. In those years before the trees are producing fruit, there's still a lot of maintenance and care involved to get them to that point, so there's even more time, energy, and expense involved before the first apple is ever picked. I don't have a ready number for the cherry tree production, but I'd anticipate a similar sunk cost in them before the first cherry is ever picked.
Again, one has to look at the "relaxed" aspect of this work. When fruit is ready to be harvested, it's a very intensive hand labor effort in a minimum amount of time. Since this outfit uses "no special equipment", understand that the apples are picked by hand. And the economics from this poster don't make sense ... 800 beautiful apples at $2 apiece is only $1,600 gross income per year. Rest assured that the entire crop isn't going to command top dollar, there will be apples on the trees that don't present as nice a fruit and need to be culled ... OH, that's work, too. "Pruning and trimming" and culling are part of the WORK involved in getting a product to maturity. Spraying by hand with a little Hudson sprayer isn't an easy or quick task when you're looking at 5 acres of trees, let alone 10 acres ... most pro growers use pressure spray systems that can reach up into the trees from the ground, but these folk apparently don't use "special equipment".
As well, the economics of the cherry production don't yield a livable income. 3,000 cherries per year is a fairly minimal production even if they're producing a specialty high value cherry. I'd doubt that they're yielding more than several thousand dollars per year in income from these.
The bottom line here is that the idyllic home farm doesn't happen without a lot of constant work, energy, and expense of inputs to create the opportunity to have a product. There's a big difference between a small home garden and producing enough produce/vegetables to justify the time/effort/expense of a Farmer's Market.
Given the costs of land in the area, the costs of planting/operating an orchard/acre ... there's no way these folk are making a living from the modest production numbers reported by this poster. There's got to be outside income here to support this "lifestyle" little farm. And a lot more work than the poster asserts to get those farming/orchard results. Winters off? maybe ... but there's a lot more work done the rest of the year to get the production. And you don't make a living from "baking a few pies" no matter how much they are in demand ... even if you're getting $10/pie, it's not all profit ... and 1,000 pies (just as an example) at $8/net per pie is still only a $8,000/year income. Ya' think that she bakes 1,000 pies/year? Really? and even nets $8/pie? time to get real, bud ...
by way of comparison, we do Farmer's Markets, CSA share sales, and online coop marketing of our vegetable production each year on a fairly sizable scale ... and in a really good year see Gross sales around $12,000/year. It's a lot of work, time, effort, energy, and input expense. If we had the time to do 1,000 pies per year, too ... we'd see a gross of $20,000/year. That's not a living income in this region of the country ... and we have no mortgage on our farm/ranch as an overhead expense, either. I'd bet this homesteading couple doesn't, too ... there's way too much land/housing cost here to be supported by such a modest income as the poster presents.
... the average cost of preparing the ground, planting and tree stock costs ... for an apple orchard is $60,000 per ACRE. (source: Western Fruit Grower, August 2016 edition, article about the Apple Grower of the Year). Even with the latest orchard techniques of a "wall of trees" similar to a grape arbor to achieve higher density tree production, it's still a lot of money upfront and years before you see a return. In those years before the trees are producing fruit, there's still a lot of maintenance and care involved to get them to that point, so there's even more time, energy, and expense involved before the first apple is ever picked. I don't have a ready number for the cherry tree production, but I'd anticipate a similar sunk cost in them before the first cherry is ever picked.
I do not doubt their numbers on national average costs.
In any bell curve you still have the data points at the margins. I am sure that in some regions it may cost you $100k/acre. In other regions it will be much less.
I only have one acre of apple trees. These are full-size trees [commercial orchards only use dwarfs], my trees are 7 years old and only beginning to come into full production. Some trees are now giving me 10 bushels while other trees are only producing 1 bushel. They are not mature yet, it takes time.
My total cost at this point [buying that acre, 7 years of taxes, clearing the forest, grading and drainage trenches, amendments, buying the trees] comes to about * $3,500. [I do the pruning myself.]
Edit- my bad. I checked our books and I see that my memory was in error. I fixed the number now. Sorry.
Last edited by Submariner; 09-09-2016 at 07:57 AM..
Reason: edit - my memory slipped. I needed to pull out our books to correct this number.
I do not doubt their numbers on national average costs.
In any bell curve you still have the data points at the margins. I am sure that in some regions it may cost you $100k/acre. In other regions it will be much less.
I only have one acre of apple trees. These are full-size trees [commercial orchards only use dwarfs], my trees are 7 years old and only beginning to come into full production. Some trees are now giving me 10 bushels while other trees are only producing 1 bushel. They are not mature yet, it takes time.
My total cost at this point [buying that acre, 7 years of taxes, clearing the forest, grading and drainage trenches, amendments, buying the trees] comes to about $2,000. [I do the pruning myself.]
$2,000 ?
How many trees are on that acre and how much per tree did you pay?
I ordered and planted just 8 apple trees over 30 years ago and it wasn't cheap.
I do not doubt their numbers on national average costs.
In any bell curve you still have the data points at the margins. I am sure that in some regions it may cost you $100k/acre. In other regions it will be much less.
I only have one acre of apple trees. These are full-size trees [commercial orchards only use dwarfs], my trees are 7 years old and only beginning to come into full production. Some trees are now giving me 10 bushels while other trees are only producing 1 bushel. They are not mature yet, it takes time.
My total cost at this point [buying that acre, 7 years of taxes, clearing the forest, grading and drainage trenches, amendments, buying the trees] comes to about * $3,500. [I do the pruning myself.]
Edit- my bad. I checked our books and I see that my memory was in error. I fixed the number now. Sorry.
You have again cited your personal example ... while commendable for what you've accomplished on your limited budget ... as comparable to what may be the norm in MT. Even though you acknowledge that there are examples "at the margins", the point here is that the example cited by the poster is way out of whack with the realities of "making a living from a small farm" income that would be needed to survive financially in MT. The limited production of apples and cherries supplemented by baking a few pies simply doesn't add up anywhere close to a livable NET income.
You've already disclosed that your land cost is absurdly low compared to much of the USA area with a growing season/water/soils. But in the case cited by the poster, the land is in a highly desirable area of MT, where land costs are far higher than yours. In recent years, ag land in small parcels (10-20 acres); ie, appropriate soils, exposure, water availability for irrigation ... range from a low of around $3,000/acre to a more commonly found $20,000/acre. That's the raw land component sans fencing, residence, utility access and fees, domestic water supply, and even a driveway cut in to the property from public roads, let alone outbuildings or other improvements typically associated with a farming operation. So the property described in the post is typically a $500,000 (and up, potentially way way up) in the real world where an appropriate productive site would be part of the parcel.
"Site Selection
Site selection is the most important component of a
successful orchard. Site selection is often overlooked by
novice and experienced growers alike. Trying to correct
problems on a poor site can result in high material and
labor costs. The right combination of micro climate and
soil type can be critical for future orchard success.
Characteristics of a good site include: well-drained deep
soil, good southern exposure, an uphill 4-8 percent slope
where cold air will not settle, and available dependable
water – often through irrigation. Many heritage orchard
sites are on southern and/or eastern hill slopes. Southern
exposure is preferred, but eastern exposure can help
combat the coldest part of the day, often just before
sunrise. Getting early morning sunlight into an orchard
can be beneficial for withstanding cold temperature
extremes. The site also needs to be fenceable to keep
deer, elk, and other browsing animals out of the orchard.
The cost of fencing an orchard is significant, and often
overlooked. Few sites in Montana will escape the threat of
wildlife damage, so plan accordingly."
Note the two big extra costs to a successful orchard production in this area: Fencing and Irrigation. Fencing ... readily available to be installed. But water for irrigation? that's a whole 'nother matter. Water is not cheap here, something that folk from low altitude riparian climates don't have to worry about for the source/availability or delivery systems.
Let's talk trees, too. Since Mrs Sun is a pro in the industry, we have access to and buy from commercial wholesale to the trade only suppliers/nurseries. Even with our discounts (and having to purchase minimum quantities to get the better discounts) and having to pick up the stock at the producer's site ... we buy apple trees here for around $35/each, bare root stock small which take at least 5 years to be productive.
On the retail side, desirable apple tree varieties for MT (given sales popularity combined with hardiness for the climate and productivity all factored in to the purchase decision) are around $58/tree at the nursery. Typically, there's a 20% discount for bare root stock. Potted trees of about 5' height which may be closer to production are running around $75/tree.
At MT's pricing, your 100 trees would cost around $6,000 ... sitting on your trailer, not planted in the ground nor raised to productive maturity. In MT, the "ideal" density of trees for a productive apple orchard is around 1,000 trees/acre.
We haven't even broached the costs of pollination. Unless the couple in MT are beekeepers (with all the attendant costs of the hives, bees, health care, and additional seasonal forage required or to feed them when there's little other pollinator habitat around), they are hiring in a beekeeper's hives for the time required to pollinate their apples and cherries ... which aren't necessarily at the same time. Both species of trees need pollinators. I don't know about Maine, but I sure know about beekeeping here in the Rocky Mountain West. It's a tough proposition for anybody, but especially small scale operations with only a couple of hives. We tried it here at our farm and even dedicated 10% of our land to native pollinator habitat (which cost me $175/lb for the seed and $65/acre to drill it in at 7 lbs/acre, no-till drill planting). Between all the various aspects of beekeeping and losses, our 5 hives didn't make it 3 years. We now bring in a couple of local beekeepers who schedule their hives on our place to take advantage of my alfalfa bloom and pollinator habitat, and let them take the losses along with the production for a portion of the honey harvest. Last year we got 4 lbs of honey from 5 hives placed throughout the season so that we could get pollination for our apple and pear trees, and vegetable gardens. The low amount of honey speaks to the issue of how great the losses are for the beekeepers around here. We were just thankful that we got the pollinators. And we also have numerous independent hives ... bundles of tubes ... for the bee types that prefer a solitary existence.
Even for folk who are living a very frugal low cost of living existence here in the area, the numbers that the poster presented as being a livable income situation from such a modest production simply don't add up. The numbers at the extreme low end just don't apply here; the costs of goods/services/medical/land/utilities are on a whole different scale than to be found in higher population density areas of the USA.
PS: your personal number doesn't reflect the difference in land values and property taxes that present in MT compared to your location. And, IMO, any analysis of a farming income scenario isn't playing with a whole deck of truth unless you include your equipment costs/operations and your lost opportunity value of your time in the venture. IE, all those hours spent doing the farm chores could have been spent doing something else ... ranging from a minimum wage job in town to a home-based accounting business, right?
On a personal note, I can do things such as my fencing ... for which I have the equipment such as a post-hole augur, a hydraulic post pounder, wire spoolers or a sheep-mesh spooler, and a couple of tractors ranging from a 35HP diesel through my JD4020 diesel to power the equipment. But I've found through the years that after having done a couple miles of fencing on my place, I'm far better off working off-farm for the significant dollar income I can bring in from my various businesses and then paying a crew to do the fencing for me. Similarly, roofing projects simply aren't my "cup of tea" and I'm better off to pay a crew to do that work on my buildings and structures. As well, I've found that I'm way ahead to earn outside income and pay crews to come here for the dead tree felling and removal (elderly elm trees have a limited lifespan in our shelter belts) since the wood is not very well suited for burning in our woodstove. So I pay a fellow to bring in my supply of firewood each year rather than spending the days needed to head to the forest service lands and buy permits/fell trees/buck and transport them to my home where the logs would need to be split for use. Yes, I can do it all ... but from a practical standpoint, it doesn't pencil out. Better to pay for these things to be done with a far more efficient and effective use of my time.
Just a sample size of one, so it only shows existence.
Had an in-law relative that had a huge farm in New York... The goal over all his life was to make the farm successful enough to send his five children to top-rated universities, so that they would not become farmers. He told me one day "This farm did what it was supposed to do... send my kids to colleges (some Ivy League) so that they will not have to end up being a farmer". He worked every day of his life. 2000 acres, 200 milk cows, etc. He accomplished his goal, and when he retired (at 85) said, "I only kept one tractor, because I want my little garden" (about an acre, and this tractor was HUGE). Tilling and planting an acre took about an hour with the equipment he had.
So to answer your question, it is only relaxed if you are the owner, not the workers, and even then you are at the mercy of the weather, pests, and a pile of other things. I gladly pay $0.35/ear for corn, than to grow acres of it.
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