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Old 12-10-2016, 12:37 PM
 
4,981 posts, read 5,040,702 times
Reputation: 6317

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Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlindwarf View Post
I understand you "do not see" the reality of the situation, which is why I have suggested checking out the UN report and other resources. Vegans do not get all of their food from monocrops or far away sources, some *gasp* source locally. REGARDLESS of that point you keep harping on, animals we raise for food currently eat the majority of the crops we grow by FAR. We'd have much more food for people if we reduced meat consumption, one of the points stressed by the UN and other organizations, as our population is growing and we will need to make some decisions we may not want to in order to ensure there's enough food to go around. Also water use, land use, methane and carbon pollution, overfishing, etc. Try researching the subject. Really, just try it.
Regardless of enormity of the meat eating issues, vegans have no answers. That is the point you refuse to see. Animals are transformers of unedible (like grass) or inaqequate (like soy beans) vegetable matter into foodstuffs people can actually subsist on. Humans cant eat grass and soy beans instead of cows. Humans residing up North have no ways to practice local veganism. How would you feed them in the meatless world?

As for UN report, indeed, starvation diets in the 3rd world are better for environment than meat eating, people eating better, i.e. more animal proteins, comes at a price, but them just eating more of anything would come at heavy cost to environment. Equally, growing more of vegan stuff to feed vegans in NA taxes 3rd world environments quite a bit.

Last edited by RememberMee; 12-10-2016 at 12:56 PM..
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Old 12-10-2016, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
176 posts, read 251,983 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
Regardless of enormity of the meat eating issues, vegans have no answers. That is the point you refuse to see. Animals are transformers of unedible (like grass) or inaqequate (like soy beans) vegetable matter into foodstuffs people can actually subsist on. Humans cant eat grass and soy beans instead of cows. Humans residing up North have no ways to practice local veganism. How would you feed them in the meatless world?

As for UN report, indeed, starvation diets in the 3rd world are better for environment than meat eating, people eating better, i.e. more animal proteins, comes at a price, but them just eating more of anything would come at heavy cost to environment. Equally, growing more of vegan stuff to feed vegans in NA taxes 3rd world environments quite a bit.
If you are talking about people living in the Artic such as Inuit, yes you are correct they (rightly so) live off meat. However, the rest of your argument is completely off base. It shows that you aren't doing the research or even reading things thoroughly. If you can't see the link between how bad factory farms and cattle ranches are for the environment I can't help you. You however are doing a huge disservice to whatever "green" standards you believe in by not recognizing how harmful animal agriculture is. You do not have to give up meat completely, but every reduction helps. Also, "growing more of vegan stuff" is such a horrible argument, since vegans eat the same things you do, except they don't eat meat and dairy. Hence, a reduction in their footprint. This is really not a hard concept to grasp. At all.

As far as "how would you feed them in a meatless world?" Easily, because growing crops, vegetables, fruits etc, uses less resources and takes far less time unless you are in certain areas like the Artic. Developed countries need to reduce their meat and dairy consumption so smaller countries have more resources.

These are all facts you can look up yourself by the way.

Last edited by caitlindwarf; 12-10-2016 at 05:15 PM..
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Old 12-10-2016, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
176 posts, read 251,983 times
Reputation: 218
If you care to learn more: COWSPIRACY: The Sustainability Secret

Everything there is sourced reputably.
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Old 12-11-2016, 07:43 AM
 
4,981 posts, read 5,040,702 times
Reputation: 6317
Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlindwarf View Post
If you are talking about people living in the Artic such as Inuit, yes you are correct they (rightly so) live off meat. However, the rest of your argument is completely off base. It shows that you aren't doing the research or even reading things thoroughly. If you can't see the link between how bad factory farms and cattle ranches are for the environment I can't help you. You however are doing a huge disservice to whatever "green" standards you believe in by not recognizing how harmful animal agriculture is. You do not have to give up meat completely, but every reduction helps. Also, "growing more of vegan stuff" is such a horrible argument, since vegans eat the same things you do, except they don't eat meat and dairy. Hence, a reduction in their footprint. This is really not a hard concept to grasp. At all.

As far as "how would you feed them in a meatless world?" Easily, because growing crops, vegetables, fruits etc, uses less resources and takes far less time unless you are in certain areas like the Artic. Developed countries need to reduce their meat and dairy consumption so smaller countries have more resources.

These are all facts you can look up yourself by the way.
You are very high on vitriol and you are very low on knowledge of mundane survival basics provided for you by the faceless corporations. You dont know what it takes to survive of the land in NA, and vegan survival, no matter how wretched and nutritionally deprived, would be 10 times as hard if not for the faceless global corporations insulating you from the rigors of veganism by raiding environments of warmer countries whose residents are not well fed themselves. I already cited this link feauturing suggested vegan dishes relying heavily on the global supply network. Vegetarian Health Institute - Discover How to Thrive on a Plant Based Diet and Stop Being Vulnerable to Deficiencies
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Old 12-11-2016, 01:21 PM
 
4,315 posts, read 2,479,175 times
Reputation: 7671
If the grazing land farmers used for beef cows could be tilled and planted into crops it would be every time beef prices are at the bottom of the barrel.


Why do beef ranchers hang in there when prices get low?
The grazing pastures would be idle if not for cattle because that land can't be tilled for anything else.
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Old 12-12-2016, 02:34 PM
 
Location: East Helena, MT
823 posts, read 574,682 times
Reputation: 2248
Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlindwarf View Post
Unfortunately your two cents and feelings on the subject are inaccurate. Animal agriculture is the leading cause of rainforest destruction and wildlife extinction and it does not "preserve" habitats, it destroys them completely. It'd be nice to believe your rosy view of the subject but that's not the reality.

The last time I checked, Beef production isn't centered in the rainforest. In fact, humid, tropical environments are horrible places for beef production. Beef production in the U.S. is centered in great arid plains of the West. ANY type of agriculture in these areas is limited, due to the shortage of water. Cattle use far less water than traditional agriculture. I invite you to come to Montana during the summer, to watch the fields of wheat, with their endless irrigation. The massive sprinklers run nonstop, with most of the water lost to evaporation. The natural land is cleared to plant the wheat, as any natural vegetation limits the yield. Now compare that to the millions of untouched rangeland where the cattle are raised. You won't see any irrigation at all. You won't see human overdevelopment either. What you will see are manmade ponds full of migrating birds, deer, antelope, moose, and elk roaming freely with the cattle. Foxes and Lynx hunting rabbits and mice in the scrubland.
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Old 12-12-2016, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
176 posts, read 251,983 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericsvibe View Post
The last time I checked, Beef production isn't centered in the rainforest.


http://globalforestatlas.yale.edu/am...attle-ranching
https://rainforestpartnership.org/th...deforestation/

Do you guys take the time to research ANYTHING?

If you have HBO check out the VICE weekly report from the last season called Meathooked, they actually show you a cattle production facility in Brazil and talk about the environmental impacts as well as doing a whole piece on water use.

Last edited by caitlindwarf; 12-12-2016 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 12-12-2016, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC
176 posts, read 251,983 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
You are very high on vitriol and you are very low on knowledge of mundane survival basics provided for you by the faceless corporations. You dont know what it takes to survive of the land in NA, and vegan survival, no matter how wretched and nutritionally deprived...
I'm done with this. I've tried nicely pointing you towards sources to learn more on the subject. I have not said "you have to go vegan" simply pointing out that meat and dairy is bad for the environment (this is a GREEN LIVING FORUM) and you go on by dismissing the facts I've provided, making false claims about my survival skills (you don't know my background), making false claims about my health (I'm healthier than I've ever been in my life), and making false claims about where I source my food (90% of the food I eat is sourced from local farms, but hey keep on making assumptions).

Anyways, I do hope those open to learning take some time to read the material provided and research on their own. I'm not here to argue with people who continue to make blind assumptions, but to have a discussion about how one can live in a more environmentally conscious way.
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Old 12-12-2016, 11:39 PM
 
4,981 posts, read 5,040,702 times
Reputation: 6317
Quote:
Originally Posted by caitlindwarf View Post
I'm done with this. I've tried nicely pointing you towards sources to learn more on the subject. I have not said "you have to go vegan" simply pointing out that meat and dairy is bad for the environment (this is a GREEN LIVING FORUM) and you go on by dismissing the facts I've provided, making false claims about my survival skills (you don't know my background), making false claims about my health (I'm healthier than I've ever been in my life), and making false claims about where I source my food (90% of the food I eat is sourced from local farms, but hey keep on making assumptions).

Anyways, I do hope those open to learning take some time to read the material provided and research on their own. I'm not here to argue with people who continue to make blind assumptions, but to have a discussion about how one can live in a more environmentally conscious way.
That short vegan temper doesnt help you with reading. First, I didnt argue environmental impacts of the industrial meat production, I questioned enviromental wisdom of the vegan alternatives, especially in the agriculturally marginal areas. It is possible you live in a fairyland where you can buy 90% of your vegan foods from local farms but for 99.9% of aspiring vegans it is not even a remote option, not even if they will adopt Walmart definition of "local".
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Old 12-15-2016, 02:33 PM
 
Location: USA
700 posts, read 979,999 times
Reputation: 648
One vote here for caitlindwarf - She makes some really good points. Most of the non-sustainable farming methods today are due to corporate greed and consumer ignorance. Worse, consumer apathy towards their environment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
... First, I didnt argue environmental impacts of the industrial meat production, I questioned enviromental wisdom of the vegan alternatives, especially in the agriculturally marginal areas.
A simple search for sustainable organic farming methods will show results like permaculture, Hugelkultur, ... All caitlindwarf was pointing out was that there are better and sustainable alternatives. Feedlots and mono-culture farming are wasteful of resources, highly polluting, full of drugs and pesticides and dangerous to the people consuming their products. The biggest beneficiaries from that system are the big agribiz.

But if you're for them, then have a day; knock yourself out. Please consume as much of that meat as you want. Contribute your funds to big agribiz. And later, the pharmaceuticals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RememberMee View Post
It is possible you live in a fairyland where you can buy 90% of your vegan foods from local farms but for 99.9% of aspiring vegans it is not even a remote option, not even if they will adopt Walmart definition of "local" .
I am one of those "aspiring vegans". Only been at it for a year. But its been a very good year. No more meds! Not a single one.

I get ALL my vegetables and fruits locally. Rather than stocking up on groceries for the week, I buy fresh every other day now. I've even started growing some of them in my backyard this year. Depending on where you live, it's really not that difficult these days to go vegetarian and buy organic, locally grown food.

And thanks to principled vegetarians/vegans like caitlindwarf, who put their money where their mouth is. Even the grocery chains are listening and providing more locally grown produce (i.e. sourced within the state).

I think this is the next phase of our evolution as a people. Actually, "evolution" might not be correct, since people were growing their own food prior to the rise of fastfood and corporate agribiz.
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