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Do not put words into my mouth that I did not say. No where did I say anything about basic conservation or similar concepts. While they may cross with global warming, they are different and do not necessarily mean the same things. Comingling them merely distracts from the discussion and creates various rabbit trails to run down.
Speaking of which, on my point on not causing a knee jerk reaction, consider the problem of rabbits in Australia. Even if we assume global warming is human caused, what are the cost (economic, environmental, and otherwise) of various reactions to "fix" it. Yes, it is very much possible that a poorly thought out "fix" will cause further damage of a different kind, necessitating another crisis and another "fix."
Now as for claims that all scientists agree, I am one and remain unconvinced, either way. There are 2000 more where I work that are in the same mindset. Across the country there are many who have not decided yet. So even going off a particular group does not mean all or even most, merely that the group that agrees belong to the group that agrees (IE survivorship bias). Current climate change appears as a house of cards hung from a skyhook. Too many assumptions and suppositions and error bars. Like I said earlier, if I published something in my field that had as many dangling assumptions and error bars, it wouldn't make it past review. Convince me with solid data, that can be independently experimentally verified and doesn't have a host of assumptions and hidden errors, not with emotional catastrophism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyNewMe
Are you saying that, if we acted on the presumption that global-warming IS human-caused, and severely cut back gas emissions, fossil fuel usage, etc.... that somehow this could make anything worse??
I say, no matter what the cause, if we do that, we as human would win! Better ecology = better health.
It also seems that this decades-long movement is far from being a "knee-jerk reaction"... To me, it rather appears as as a slo-o-ow, drawn-out stopping of a train going full-speed, in the wrong direction. Inertia is against it, as in: customs, established business models, full-on resistance of many major companies involved, fighting the change since it robs them of profits.
So, to them it's a very convenient theory to spread to people: first, that there is no global warming; then, when it got near impossible to deny anymore: "It is not human-caused, natural cycle, no need to worry... no need to change your lifestyle, or get inconvenienced..."
Lots of money gets spent on discrediting the global warming. (LOTS more than any scientists could possibly get in grants from poor, cash-strapped government, as this argument is often stated, that the "global warming hype" was created and blown out of proportion because of some scientists wanting to make a name or easy money to "study" it.) And lots of people prefer to believe Big Oil & Co, because it's EASIER, it's doesn't require any changes, allows us to keep our comfortable lifestyle and consumerism.
All the while the train keeps hurtling on forward - and for all we know, by the time it finally slowed down enough to "let some people off"... it may be over a cliff, by then.
Hi,
There is a thread elsewhere on this forum wondering about the politics of green living. As a conservative, and an older person, let me offer to help explain why some have concerns about alleged "green" living.
The issues are complex, and we should try to establish basic agreement about the facts of climate and eventually "green". Lets start by trying to agree on some facts.
First and foremost, during our first Earth Day, global cooling was the concern. This was an event that was attended by me personally. Cooling was the primary concern of most. Recently this history is clouded, mostly by those who wish to present consistent warming predictions. However this wasn't the case, we were deluged with global cooling during the early to late 70's by our media of the day.
Later, we started to fear global warming.
The common thread between fear of cooling and fear of warming, is fear. Fear is a motivator for almost all humans. If we fear something, we are willing to pay to avoid it. We will give up some freedom to reduce the perceived threat. We will sacrifice to avoid that which we fear, the greater the fear, the more we will sacrifice.
The reality is we are experiencing an interglacial period (the Holocene Epoch) which is a brief break from the millions of years old Quaternary Ice Age. During the past few million years, interglacial periods such as the one we enjoy today have been short lived compared to the frozen Ice Age. 80% of the time for millions of years, we have experienced ice age. The full glaciation of Antarctica and the poles generally reflects this. The Antarctic wasn't always glaciated, it wasn't always at the South Pole either. Though it was there for a considerable time, without glaciation.
The greatest likelihood is our interglacial period will end, and the ice age resume. Ice ages aside from being cooler, are also dryer. Most potable water is trapped by glaciers.
The above are basic facts. Not really debated by anyone. If we can get this far, and have consensus, we can move on and discuss what being "green" or not "green" may mean to us.
At this point, my post ends, after you google Quaternary and Holocene, let me know, and we can continue to discuss. If you have questions, ask away. However please google the ice age, interglacial period, and first earth day ice age before replying it will help considerably.
I was an "environmentalist" before you were born. I am conscious of everything I do that has an impact.
I know for a fact that our planet is a huge chunk of rock with some wet spots on the surface. There isn't a thing that we can do to extend the life of this spinning mass.
Whether humans are here in a million years, has no bearing on the continuation of its orbit around the sun.
We are just along for the ride.
What I am not is a flaming zealot that has adopted the cause as the new religion of the Left.
Green living is the old fashioned way.
Waste not, want not.
Use only what you need, and leave the rest for others.
Leave things as you found them...you get it.
Is the earth warming? Sure, but it is only the natural ebb and flow of nature. Since time began, the planet has changed, and species of living things have gone away. Those who think humans control this are delusional.
His doesn't mean there shouldn't be laws against polluting the air and water.
What people don't like is to be dictated to by those who are wacky.
Let's say just for grins you want to visit two friends and have a meal at their house. One friend lives in a spotless house. Everything is clean and pristine. The water glasses and water are crystal clear. The food has been prepared in a meticulous and clean fashion. Every surface in the house is gleaming, even the windows are clean. Your friend washes their hands before serving any food. The plates and silverware are still hot from being fresh out of the dishwasher. You eat a wonderful meal and return home happy and knowing that what you had to eat was safe and clean. Well maybe. Where and how was it grown?
Lets visit friend number two's house. You drive up to a front porch full of cobwebs and rotten wood. Cigarette smoke billows out of the house when your friend comes to the door. The walls are yellow from nicotine and the windows are brown from years of smoking and not being cleaned. The smell is putrid and your eyes are burning. You sit down in a dust filled dining room and there are ants crawling all over the place. They actually begin to bite your legs. The food comes out on plates that were hand washed but weren't as clean as you like. The food is awesome but you find after returning home that you are indeed sick from the filth.
It's obvious to all which house you prefer to visit and eat in. I also know which planet I want to live on. I don't really care who's right or wrong concerning global warming. I do know it makes me sad to think that I can't fish in the stream that runs through our neighborhood nor wade in the water because it's like visiting house number two. Did nature render it unsafe? I don't think so. If less green house gases escape it also means less pollution and a cleaner planet. Anyone want to visit Beijing? Some of the air pollution is from nature and dust storms, the rest is man made and horrifying. I would never go there.
The bottom line to me is that it really doesn't matter who's right or wrong about global warming. We live like pigs on this planet and leave behind a filthy house in our wake. If going green is the answer to keeping the planet from turning into a giant sewer, then I'll gladly go green. Let's not live like Beijing. Making money shouldn't be that ugly.
All of us, regardless of political differences, need to be respectful of the planet, and the animals that inhabit it. Conscientious people do what they can to avoid waste, pollution, and destruction of habitat. Unfortunately, it doesn't come naturally to some.
Oh man forgot to multi-quote. Green living is nice for Kinkytoes because she likes trees and fresh air and pretty birds and butterflies. Based on what the scientists say about the warming planet, it looks like we are toast and it would take feats of engineering to save humankind. But other than frying like kippers on the planet, the other poster who said there are other reasons to be green is right IMO.
Do I like concrete or do I like trees? Yep trees. Do I like plastic or do I like moss? Hmm moss. Do I like processed chemical-laden food or do I like fresh fruit, veg and (yes even) meat? I'll take the fresh stuff. Do I like oily, lifeless gray water or blue water full of fish and seaweed? Hmm I think blue ocean. Car fumes or flowers? You get the picture.
As far as the global warming goes, it looks like there is not much we can do to get all the carbon back under the earth at this point. It looks like the melting ice is causing methane to join the carbon in the atmosphere. This is the upper atmosphere, where trees may not even be able to help get rid of it? It looks like that may make the planet too hot for us to live on. True or not, we'll find out if or when this happens. But if we want to, we can live in the way that makes us happy until then.
I seem to think that I have only been hearing about air temps.
Like everything else in the AGW discussion it is complex. What matters is the integrated temperature of the earth which means all parts of the earth, at all points. One way to get those measurements is through remote-sensing satellites. They gather data across the entire surface of the earth which will include ocean and land. Obviously some of the land mass is dirt, some is rock, some is vegetation. All of it contributes. Another way to get measurements is to make them "in situ", that is, directly at a variety of sites scattered across the globe. Those measurements are used to also calibrate the satellite data. One of the best data sources is ocean temperatures since they go back 100 years or so.
If you think about global warming and what risks it presents to humans it turns out that the most fundamental temperature is that of the ocean. The ocean drives most synoptic scale weather and climate so whatever is happening to the ocean will be pushed to the atmosphere and then to the continents. Thus a large part of AGW research is focused on what is happening to the sea. So while you may hear talk about air temperatures, it is really secondary to sea temps. But to be perfectly accurate, the global warming physical process includes all parts of the earth: sea, land, air. When researchers make total energy calculations in order to assess the earth's equilibrium black-body temperature, they use all those things.
Good question, green living comes from concern about the environment, pollution and independence. To the extent we can understand how green living came to us, we can understand divergent perspectives regarding it. A lot of green living makes sense to me, some does not.
Sadly there isn't agreement about the first post, and the facts presented, thus it makes no sense to continue a thread which may be disruptive to those who reject it's premise.
My hope was to share a conservative perspective in this thread. However the premise isn't accepted, and somehow the bible was brought in, this indicates some people are more into attacking rather than understanding on this forum. It isn't worth an argument.
Amen! lol.
The truth is pretty much everything is based on fear. Give someone a platform with which to make a goofy cause and you've got fear. With fear comes a cause.
I have a question: Why do you seem to believe "green living" must be centered around the issue of climate change rather than living with reduced use of chemicals, plastics, and high petrol-consuming products?
I agree. I don't think of Green Living as being necessarily focused on climate change. In a way you have set up a straw-man here by saying this discussion is about Green Living but then trying to make it about AGW. I think we should talk about one or the other and not mix them up.
To get back to Green Living - I think it is discounted by many because it butts heads with big industry and they use their weight to buy off politicians and turn it into an economic debate.
Take GMO - I think of using GMO food as being a "green" issue. Where I live it was voted down by our county in a local referendum. Monsanto came in with a lot of lawyers and got the results of the referendum thrown out. Big business vs. the will of the people. Similar with plastic bags being eliminated from stores. They fill land fills, don't degrade and get blown around the landscape. County council tried to ban them but the plastic industry came in and fought it tooth and nail.
Those are Green Living issues we should talk about. AGW is also one but is so controversial I would put it in a thread of its own.
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