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Old 05-01-2017, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,715 posts, read 5,524,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Early in this thread someone mentioned a lack of electrical storage needed for "intermittent" sources of electrical energy such as wind and solar collectors is not available. That is incorrect.


The technology of electrical storage called Pumped Storage consisting of an upper water reservoir connected to a lower reservoir through reversible water pump/turbines mechanically connected to electrical motor/generators. This technology is scalable and can work from the megawatt-hour to the multi gigawatt-hour size. Fundamentally all that is needed is an elevation difference, some plumbing, the motor/generator and a source of water sufficient to make up for evaporative losses from the reservoirs.
I'm aware of pumped storage, but we would need a huge number of storage facilities if we wanted to phase out coal and gas power plants:
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/
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Old 05-01-2017, 01:39 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,636 posts, read 8,534,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
You might be, the industry isn't and certainly not coal. We are adding wind and solar at about twice the rate of gas.
Funny, you should read the trades sometime.
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Old 05-01-2017, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
12,871 posts, read 4,870,986 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
I'm aware of pumped storage, but we would need a huge number of storage facilities if we wanted to phase out coal and gas power plants:
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/
Interesting area. The efficiency is pretty good....better than 80%.

You could do almost as much as you wished along the Colorado. Pump it back after it comes through Hoover Dam. And I would suspect there are dozens of places along the Colorado where you could build such facilities. Block off a higher canyon and pump it from and to the Colorado.

Would be mostly a capital expense. But it could be a big bill. Don't think I have ever seen good numbers on it.
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:14 PM
 
Location: DC
6,528 posts, read 6,463,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Energy density is the amount of energy per unit area or volume. It's hugely important when it comes to the economics of energy.

One of the big problems with wind and solar is their relatively low energy density. For a given amount of land area, there's just not very much energy in the form of solar radiation or moving air. That means we need huge solar arrays and huge wind farms to generate the amounts of electricity necessary for powering whole cities and countries.

David MacKay, the late British physicist, did some basic calculations related to renewable energy:

https://www.withouthotair.com

The lack of land is a bigger problem in the U.K. than in the U.S., but we still have the problem of cost. Low energy density means large installations to capture meaningful amounts of power, and "large" usually equals "expensive."
Wow, you're just wrong. Powering the entire US with solar, something we will not do any time soon, would take about three time the space allocated to golf courses. That doesn't account for putting much of the capacity on roofs.
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:16 PM
 
Location: DC
6,528 posts, read 6,463,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Funny, you should read the trades sometime.
I just look at actual construction rather than journalistic hype.
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:02 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,636 posts, read 8,534,348 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
I just look at actual construction rather than journalistic hype.
To bad you might learn a thing or three...
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:46 PM
 
Location: DC
6,528 posts, read 6,463,148 times
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Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
To bad you might learn a thing or three...
That 11 thousand MW of wind and solar were installed compared to 6 thousand MW of gas and no coal. Is that what I would learn?
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Old 05-01-2017, 04:16 PM
 
Location: UNMC Area
749 posts, read 435,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
That 11 thousand MW of wind and solar were installed compared to 6 thousand MW of gas and no coal. Is that what I would learn?
That's because Warren Buffett owned President Obama, and got him to sign off on multi-billion dollar subsidies for the companies he owns.

If you were such an insider, full of knowledge as you claim, you'd know these things.
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Old 05-01-2017, 04:35 PM
 
Location: DC
6,528 posts, read 6,463,148 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvo Driver View Post
That's because Warren Buffett owned President Obama, and got him to sign off on multi-billion dollar subsidies for the companies he owns.

If you were such an insider, full of knowledge as you claim, you'd know these things.
The subsidies available to wind are available to everyone and were passed by Bush in 2005 Energy Act.
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Old 05-01-2017, 04:44 PM
 
Location: UNMC Area
749 posts, read 435,007 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
The subsidies available to wind are available to everyone and were passed by Bush in 2005 Energy Act.
Hahahaha - that's not why MidAm (owned by Warren Buffett) got not only the contracts but the billions of dollars these last 8 years.

Warren got the money for the exact same reason the Keystone XL was vetoed. Campaign contributions.
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