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Old 04-28-2017, 11:36 AM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,947,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvo Driver View Post
Good. Because I'm not.

My brother & I (he & I own the land together) already have a contingency plan for what we're going to do when MidAm defaults on their current contract.
Stock 2 years worth of food in your survival shelter for when the government fails as well. You have to be prepared.
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:16 PM
 
Location: USA
18,423 posts, read 9,044,532 times
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Here's the problem: how are we going to significantly reduce CO2 emissions without nuclear?

Wind and solar aren't even close to being cost effective, because every MW of wind and solar capacity must be backed up with a MW of conventional generation capacity. And because the backup capacity is both necessary and sufficient, the wind and solar plants are pure waste from a capital cost standpoint. Unless the fuel cost of the backup generation is very high, the fuel savings will not be enough to offset the added cost of the wind and solar plants.

Germany added a huge amount of wind and solar capacity, at great expense, with little reduction in CO2 emissions.

Until solar (or wind) with storage is as cheap as coal & natural gas, wind and solar will not be competitive.

Last edited by Freak80; 04-28-2017 at 12:26 PM..
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:22 PM
 
Location: UNMC Area
749 posts, read 726,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Stock 2 years worth of food in your survival shelter for when the government fails as well. You have to be prepared.
It has nothing to do with food. It has to do with several large wind generators that - one way or the other - will no longer be on the land if MidAm filches on their contract.
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:28 PM
 
Location: UNMC Area
749 posts, read 726,430 times
Reputation: 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Here's the problem: how are we going to significantly reduce CO2 emissions without nuclear?

Wind and solar aren't even close to being cost effective, because every MW of wind and solar capacity must be backed up with a MW of conventional generation capacity. And because the backup capacity is both necessary and sufficient, the wind and solar plants are pure waste from a capital cost standpoint. Unless the fuel cost of the backup generation is very high, the fuel savings will not be enough to offset the added cost of the wind and solar plants.

Germany added a huge amount of wind and solar capacity, at great expense, with little reduction in CO2 emissions.

Until the combination of solar / wind and storage together is as cheap as coal & gas, wind and solar will not be competitive with coal & gas.
One of the problems with both solar and wind is that they are not constant. There always has to be a secondary (actually, usually primary) source of power.

The other problem is too little Return On Investment (ROI). Even with the hundreds of millions of dollars spent subsidizing wind generation (probably billions by now), wind energy only supplies 2%-3% of our electricity.

It's just not feasible. Yet...
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Old 04-28-2017, 01:37 PM
 
Location: USA
18,423 posts, read 9,044,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volvo Driver View Post
One of the problems with both solar and wind is that they are not constant. There always has to be a secondary (actually, usually primary) source of power.

The other problem is too little Return On Investment (ROI). Even with the hundreds of millions of dollars spent subsidizing wind generation (probably billions by now), wind energy only supplies 2%-3% of our electricity.

It's just not feasible. Yet...
Yes, exactly.

The intermittency of wind and solar is a near-fatal flaw until there is an economical way to store vast amounts of electricity. Imagine trying to run New York City on lead-acid or lithium-ion batteries. How much would that cost? Yes, there is pumped-hydro storage, but a huge number of sites would be needed.

There are CSP plants with molten salt storage that can generate power all night, which is pretty awesome. But CSP doesn't tolerate clouds very well, so they can only be used in deserts. Even deserts can have periods of cloudy weather though, so you'd still be stuck with the need for backup power plants. On the other hand, if the electricity demand comes mainly from air conditioning, the demand for electricity would tend to be lower on cloudy days.
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Old 04-28-2017, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,420 posts, read 10,771,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
Just because the US doesn't use nuclear to a great extent doesn't mean it isn't an important source of energy. France derives more than 75% of its power from nuclear energy.

Nuclear Power Today | Nuclear Energy - World Nuclear Association
I don't think we have heard of the final results of how that French nuclear game will play out.
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Old 04-28-2017, 01:43 PM
 
Location: DC
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The french are finding new reactors too expensive too.
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Old 04-28-2017, 01:45 PM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,947,532 times
Reputation: 3572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Yes, exactly.

The intermittency of wind and solar is a near-fatal flaw until there is an economical way to store vast amounts of electricity. Imagine trying to run New York City on lead-acid or lithium-ion batteries. How much would that cost? Yes, there is pumped-hydro storage, but a huge number of sites would be needed.

There are CSP plants with molten salt storage that can generate power all night, which is pretty awesome. But CSP doesn't tolerate clouds very well, so they can only be used in deserts. Even deserts can have periods of cloudy weather though, so you'd still be stuck with the need for backup power plants. On the other hand, if the electricity demand comes mainly from air conditioning, the demand for electricity would tend to be lower on cloudy days.
There are utilities in the midwest with 20% wind and doing fine.
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Old 04-28-2017, 01:48 PM
 
Location: UNMC Area
749 posts, read 726,430 times
Reputation: 1002
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
There are utilities in the midwest with 20% wind and doing fine.
Where?

I'm in the Midwest, and that's NOT the news here, even though there are wind farms everywhere.
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Lone Mountain Las Vegas NV
18,058 posts, read 10,220,374 times
Reputation: 8828
Nuclear is no longer cost effective. Period. And on top of that Fukushima was fatal. All the awful tales ever put together realized.

Solar is now quite cost effective. It has now reached such a low level that it is competitive with the variable cost of natural gas. Recent contracts have been negotiated for large scale solar under $0.02 in the mideast and at $0.029 per KWH in Chile. In the US we see $0.039 in NV. At these prices they are competitive.

The large windmills are getting to similar numbers.

Subsidies are phasing out and will be gone by 2020.

As Solar PV gets into the vicinity of $0.02 the entire economic base changes. Fossil fueled plants are no longer run all the time and you go to sources easily ramped up and down to back up the renewable capability. Simply a vastly different world by 2030.
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