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I thought this was the "green living" forum? What do economics have to do with living green? If you want to live green you pay the price with a smile on your face because you know you are doing the right thing. The fact that there is any argument over the price is irrelevant as there are a million other things we use on a daily basis that could be far less expensive but we still pay the price because we want them, but when it comes to renewable energy no one wants to pay the extra cost, if there is an added cost at all.
Most wind and pv is purchased on long term contract by utilities. When it produces, the suppliers get paid. If the utilities got 1/3 of their energy from wind, pv and fossil each, it wouldn't cost a dime more because they pay a unit cost per MWh produced. The fossil generation that is used is reserve capacity that is already built and often used about 5% of the time.
It's not your fault that you're so ignorant. You have no background in utility economics.
This is real time MISO LMP map. Energy in a large swath of the country is 20/26 bucks. That all we pay and get paid for energy injected into the grid. How do you ballance that against 62 buck PPA for wind and 30 buck PPA's for solar? The only way we make money is to dump those cost onto the customer....
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you: Germany is the Great Experiment in Alternative Energy.
It ain't working out too well: it's more expensive to the point that they've created an energy impoverished class in their society and it's killing their industry, kept alive only because of large govt subsidies. It seems they have accomplished a redistribution of wealth: from the poor to the rich.
I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you: Germany is the Great Experiment in Alternative Energy.
It ain't working out too well: it's more expensive to the point that they've created an energy impoverished class in their society and it's killing their industry, kept alive only because of large govt subsidies. It seems they have accomplished a redistribution of wealth: from the poor to the rich.
Why do I care what Germany does? You should be more worried about what Georgia and South Carolina do. They are building new nukes and it isn't pretty.
This is real time MISO LMP map. Energy in a large swath of the country is 20/26 bucks. That all we pay and get paid for energy injected into the grid. How do you ballance that against 62 buck PPA for wind and 30 buck PPA's for solar? The only way we make money is to dump those cost onto the customer....
Disclaime: These prices change all the time ........
Houston (Platts)--19 Jul 2016 557 pm EDT/2157 GMT
Midcontinent Independent System Operator real-time locational marginal prices were jumping above $200/MWh Tuesday afternoon as load neared the forecast peak for the day.
Minnesota Hub on-peak jumped as high as about $230.75/MWh around 3 pm CDT, nearly $200.50 above where the day-ahead LMP for Tuesday delivery traded.
All hubs across MISO spiked. Michigan Hub on-peak was near $190.25/MWh around 3 pm. Louisiana Hub on-peak was about $190/MWh. Illinois Hub on-peak was around $184.75/MWh. Indiana Hub on-peak was near $186.75/MWh. Arkansas Hub on-peak was roughly $148.75/MWh.
Most wind and pv is purchased on long term contract by utilities. When it produces, the suppliers get paid. If the utilities got 1/3 of their energy from wind, pv and fossil each, it wouldn't cost a dime more because they pay a unit cost per MWh produced. The fossil generation that is used is reserve capacity that is already built and often used about 5% of the time.
It's not your fault that you're so ignorant. You have no background in utility economics.
The reality remains: it costs a society more money to build & maintain (100% fossil capacity + wind + solar) than (100% capacity alone).
You can do all of the Enron Accounting and D.C. Math you want in order to hide costs, but the macroeconomic reality doesn't change. It's why you dismiss real-world examples like Germany.
Until (solar + wind + storage) costs less than our conventional power generation systems, solar and wind will not be economical. It's why India and China are going with coal and nuclear, with a little bit of solar and wind for "green cred."
Please give an example of a developing country (not including remote islands) that is relying on this wonderfully cheap solar and wind to gain a competitive edge over the rest of us who foolishly rely on expensive coal, hydro, natural gas, and nuclear.
In the U.S. alone between oil, natural gas, and coal we have so much fossil fuel that it should be considered renewable. The entire carbon thing is a hoax in order to tax energy more, grow government, and redistribute income, and wealth.
I am all for "getting off the grid" however, and if/when solar becomes more efficient, and less expensive with better battery technology I may do that.
The reality remains: it costs a society more money to build & maintain (100% fossil capacity + wind + solar) than (100% capacity alone).
You can do all of the Enron Accounting and D.C. Math you want in order to hide costs, but the macroeconomic reality doesn't change. It's why you dismiss real-world examples like Germany.
Until (solar + wind + storage) costs less than our conventional power generation systems, solar and wind will not be economical. It's why India and China are going with coal and nuclear, with a little bit of solar and wind for "green cred."
Please give an example of a developing country (not including remote islands) that is relying on this wonderfully cheap solar and wind to gain a competitive edge over the rest of us who foolishly rely on expensive coal, hydro, natural gas, and nuclear.
Actually solar is ideal for remote villages in many third world countries, but that's really irrelevant to what we are doing in the US, which is building solar and wind about as fast as we can. If you don't like it, that's fine. It's still going to continue to happen. Life sucks when you are on the losing end.
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