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Old 08-02-2017, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia/South Jersey area
3,677 posts, read 2,550,461 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
It's been a century since anyone clear cut forests and 60 yrs since the Cuyahoga River started on fire. In days past, people were literally unaware that resources could be depleted or destoyed. We're more sophisticated now.

Some basic regulations on pollution and conservation should be in place (do we really need a LAW that says "Thou shalt not kill"?) but the EPA long ago passed the point of diminishing returns. Now they're just power grabbing. It's all about control, not about protecting us or the environment.


lol obviously we do considering people still murder.
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Old 08-02-2017, 08:04 AM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,967,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
A great deal of what you pay for electric from those plants is capital costs. Thus the cost per kWh of electric from those plants necessarily rises.
Most coal plants in the United States are fully depreciated so capital charges are modest. Coal plants are very slow to start up. Backup for wind and pv will typically be natural gas fired combustion turbines. Many of these are modified jet engines. Cheap, quick starting, low operating costs, but relatively high fuel costs.
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Old 08-03-2017, 07:30 AM
 
Location: USA
18,461 posts, read 9,106,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Most coal plants in the United States are fully depreciated so capital charges are modest. Coal plants are very slow to start up. Backup for wind and pv will typically be natural gas fired combustion turbines. Many of these are modified jet engines. Cheap, quick starting, low operating costs, but relatively high fuel costs.
It will be a lot of fun when natural gas gets expensive again. Wait until we have to import natural gas from the Middle East or Russia just to keep the lights on.

But hey. At least it green.
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Old 08-03-2017, 10:39 AM
 
Location: DC
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Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
It will be a lot of fun when natural gas gets expensive again. Wait until we have to import natural gas from the Middle East or Russia just to keep the lights on.

But hey. At least it green.
The plants will not run that much so fuel costs aren't particularly important. I'm not an expert on natural gas, but we have a very large resource available through fracking. It will be quite a while before it is very expensive. Take the bird in the hand.
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Old 08-04-2017, 12:12 PM
 
Location: USA
18,461 posts, read 9,106,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
The plants will not run that much so fuel costs aren't particularly important. I'm not an expert on natural gas, but we have a very large resource available through fracking. It will be quite a while before it is very expensive. Take the bird in the hand.
If Germany and California are a good example, the gas plants will have to run quite often. Nights with light wind are a common occurrence.
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Old 08-04-2017, 04:54 PM
 
Location: DC
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Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
If Germany and California are a good example, the gas plants will have to run quite often. Nights with light wind are a common occurrence.
So what is the capacity factor of California simple cycle combustion turbines?
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Old 08-05-2017, 03:39 AM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,926,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
It will be quite a while before it is very expensive.
That largely depends, historically coal prices have been rock steady going back forever. Coal prices have increased over the decades but those increases are steady, there is no wild swings like you see with oil and gas. The price of gas is lower but it has not stabilized with the new supply like you have with the coal market and when they start exporting it there is huge demand for it globally. A lot of that demand is from Europe who also have a significance dependence on Russian natural gas, that places yet another issue on the table because any disruption of that supply will have drastic consequences for the price. Whether gas can can maintain a low stable price here in the US remains to be seen.

Personally I think there should be significant export tax on any raw resource leaving this country whether it's coal, natural gas, oil or whatever. That may sound odd coming from me but the vast natural resources in this country are the biggest asset we have for our economy. We should be using that energy ourselves to produce and export finished products. Exporting raw products is counter productive.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:45 PM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,967,033 times
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Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
That largely depends, historically coal prices have been rock steady going back forever. Coal prices have increased over the decades but those increases are steady, there is no wild swings like you see with oil and gas. The price of gas is lower but it has not stabilized with the new supply like you have with the coal market and when they start exporting it there is huge demand for it globally. A lot of that demand is from Europe who also have a significance dependence on Russian natural gas, that places yet another issue on the table because any disruption of that supply will have drastic consequences for the price. Whether gas can can maintain a low stable price here in the US remains to be seen.

Personally I think there should be significant export tax on any raw resource leaving this country whether it's coal, natural gas, oil or whatever. That may sound odd coming from me but the vast natural resources in this country are the biggest asset we have for our economy. We should be using that energy ourselves to produce and export finished products. Exporting raw products is counter productive.
Coal is a cost based industry and has been so for 30+ years. Gas and oil are price differently, but the supply of fracked gas is so high that historical price patterns are really not relevant. The price of renewable generation has dropped in many areas to where it is competitive with system power. which means it will force it's way into the mix through economic dispatch alone. Gas is the ideal fuel to firm up renewable resources. We will see a continuing decline in the number of coal fired plants in the United States as generators make pragmatic business decisions.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:03 PM
 
Location: USA
18,461 posts, read 9,106,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
We will see a continuing decline in the number of coal fired plants in the United States as generators make pragmatic business decisions.
Maybe.

Or maybe not. We will lose most of our nuclear fleet over the next 20 or 30 years, and who knows what natural gas prices will be at that point. Cheap and abundant resources have a way of being consumed faster than anyone thinks.

Germany is actually building new coal capacity to offset their lost nuclear capacity, despite their big push for wind and solar.
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:49 PM
 
Location: DC
6,848 posts, read 7,967,033 times
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Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Maybe.

Or maybe not. We will lose most of our nuclear fleet over the next 20 or 30 years, and who knows what natural gas prices will be at that point. Cheap and abundant resources have a way of being consumed faster than anyone thinks.

Germany is actually building new coal capacity to offset their lost nuclear capacity, despite their big push for wind and solar.
Germany is not the United States.

No maybes about closing coal fired plants. Over 100 coal fired power plants were shut down in 2014. Operating capacity of coal fired plats is down in the 50% range.
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