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Old 12-04-2018, 04:08 PM
 
16,571 posts, read 14,026,756 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
What's your computer made of?
Aluminum case, plastic keys, and a variety of other materials. So what?

The issue isn't getting rid of all plastic, but rather producing less plastic in our waste streams.
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Old 12-04-2018, 04:17 PM
 
16,571 posts, read 14,026,756 times
Reputation: 20525
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Good for you!. You deserve a cookie.


Now please document for us all the dubious statements you made above about the fate & effects of plastic.


You may find it interesting that fungi & bacteria can digest/degrade plastics. https://phys.org/news/2016-03-newly-...c-bottles.html




Finding plastic in living organisms doesn't necessarily means it's doing any harm there. Here's an extensive review from an obviously "TreeHugger" source https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2873021/ . Pay particular attention to Sections III & IV- effects of plastics on environment & for human health-- all speculation with a lot of "could be's," "possibly's" & "maybe's" with no actual proof.


I'm not advocating littering. Keep in mind that most of the plastic that winds up in oceans gets there because it's dumped there by the guys who took it on to re-cycle but couldn't handle it all. If you send your waste plastic to be re-cycled, then you're part of the problem, we'd have to say.


We should conserve for conservation's sake. Waste not, want not....and carry out what you carried in..... But all this talk about plastic is like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Did you even read your source? It didn't say microplastics were harmless. And if you think "could be" and "may be" are unacceptable terms you clearly don't read science papers. Scientists always speak in likelihoods, its the nature of the training. If you don't know that, you have no business presenting scientific research in a forum. If you do know better, shame on you.

Oh what they actually said was: There are solutions, including material reduction, design for end-of-life recyclability, increased recycling capacity, development of bio-based feedstocks, strategies to reduce littering, the application of green chemistry life-cycle analyses and revised risk assessment approaches. Such measures will be most effective through the combined actions of the public, industry, scientists and policymakers. There is some urgency, as the quantity of plastics produced in the first 10 years of the current century is likely to approach the quantity produced in the entire century that preceded.

And yes microplastics are harmful to living organisms. They absorb persistent organic pollutants from the environment, then release it when ingested. These are chemicals that are known to be dangerous to humans. Period.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...69749114005211


You have zero business promoting your opinion as fact. Especially as it is so readily disproven by even a cursory glance of the literature.
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Old 12-05-2018, 06:23 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,773 posts, read 1,042,529 times
Reputation: 5965
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
If you think plastics aren't a problem, particularly for fisheries species, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Then educate me.


Document quantitatively the problem plastic straws present to fisheries.
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Old 12-05-2018, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,591 posts, read 8,505,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Aluminum case, plastic keys, and a variety of other materials. So what?

The issue isn't getting rid of all plastic, but rather producing less plastic in our waste streams.
If your re -read the conversation you would see that I responded to the statement "I live plastic free" That stuff isn't happening.....Frankly I don't worry about my waste stream that crap goes out in the burn barrel and disappears.....
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Old 12-05-2018, 05:31 PM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,773 posts, read 1,042,529 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post

Maybe you oughta actually read that paper: what they found was mussels (small filter feeders, so very obviously most prone to be affected by filtering water with contaminants) had their immune systems activated by being exposed to plastic microspheres in their water. Shouldn't we expect that? They didn't show that caused any problems, but they insinuate those changes "could" be bad. WUWT???


It's been shown that humans given the BCG vaccine as prophylaxis against TB in areas where that's still endemic have lower rates of cancer-- presumably because the vaccine generally activates the immune system. ..Maybe mussels living in plastic contaminated seas will now have a lower rate of cancer. We're doin' 'em a favor.


Seriously, this stuff deserves more study, but so far there's no evidence it's hurting anything. The question is really- how much can we contaminate before it does become a problem? Can we actually reach that level?...Remember even water or oxygen are toxic when taken in high enough concentrations.
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Old 12-06-2018, 12:09 PM
 
16,571 posts, read 14,026,756 times
Reputation: 20525
Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Then educate me.
I get paid to teach people. Sign up for an online class if you can't be bothered to educate yourself. Or don't, but at least stop pretending you are an expert in this field when you are not.

Quote:
Document quantitatively the problem plastic straws present to fisheries.
Your premise is flawed. Asking for a quantitative measure for fisheries as a whole is inane. You might as well ask for a quantitative measure of the effect of AIDS on every person on the planet.

Straws degrade into microplastics. Do you dispute this fact?

Microplastics are found in the guts of many marine fishes. According to the study below 73% of fish studiedingest microplastics.

Wieczorek, Alina M., Liam Morrison, Peter L. Croot, A. Louise Allcock, Eoin MacLoughlin, Olivier Savard, Hannah Brownlow, and Thomas K. Doyle. "Frequency of microplastics in mesopelagic fishes from the Northwest Atlantic." Frontiers in Marine Science 5 (2018): 39.


These microplastics have negative effects. This study was a laboratory experiment showing the negative effects of sea bass ingesting contaminated plastic pellets.

Pedà, Cristina, Letteria Caccamo, Maria Cristina Fossi, Francesco Gai, Franco Andaloro, Lucrezia Genovese, Anna Perdichizzi, Teresa Romeo, and Giulia Maricchiolo. "Intestinal alterations in European sea bass Dicentrarchus labrax (Linnaeus, 1758) exposed to microplastics: preliminary results." Environmental pollution 212 (2016): 251-256.
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Old 12-06-2018, 03:28 PM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,773 posts, read 1,042,529 times
Reputation: 5965
As I said in regards your cited mussel study: the mere presence of microplastics in filter feeders can be easily deduced. But that study and these latter papers only show that exposure to plastics has effects-- but no demonstration of adverse effects.


Here's a synopsis of a recent symposium on marine life & plastics exposures EFFECTS OF MICROPLASTICS ON FISH AND INVERTEBRATES – Sixth International Marine Debris Conference Again- measurable biochemical effects, effects on immune systems & hepatic function and gene regulation, but little of it shown to be adverse, but rather, the anticipated protective reactions to foreign bodies.


There is a paper or two that shows some effect on developmental factors in certain species, which may or may not have practical implications on the ecosystem.


OTOH- it's encouraging that one paper showed little effect of transferring the microplastics up the food chain.


Again-- we need more study (the old Butterfly Effect in Chaos Theory- one small adverse effect may get magnified in the web of things) but after several decades of polluting the oceans with plastic, we have to resort to sophisticated & subtle biochemical/genetic/immunological tests in the lab to show any effects at all. None seem to be apparent on the macro-environmental level-- except, of course, Kramer's one dumb Titleist that wound up in the whale's blowhole. Luckily, George, lying about being a marine biologist, was on hand to save the whale.
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Old 01-06-2019, 02:41 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,773 posts, read 1,042,529 times
Reputation: 5965
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/01/...c-of-plastics/


A Dutch kid has "invented" a huge barrier to be dragged thru the ocean by a ship to scoop up plastic. Superficially, a good idea. Practically, his is a stupid way to do it-- as he's finding out.


Read the comments after the article-- many very good suggestions on how the problem of ocean pollution with plastics should be attacked.


One of the commenters approached the problem like I do to first estimate the situation quantitatively. He calculates that this method would take 10,000 years to cover the oceans one time. Others point out that the whole problem stems from deliberate dumping into rivers in most of SE Asia-- just fix their disposal plans and the problem would take care of itself.
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Old 01-06-2019, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Coastal Georgia
36,993 posts, read 45,457,013 times
Reputation: 61516
Quote:
Originally Posted by Izzie1213 View Post
In the past number of years it seems that our daily lives have been increasingly dependent on plastics.
Just a few small misc. examples : soda crackers the boxes they come in are light weight cardboard still but the crackers are wrapped in plastic, it used to be a waxed paper. ****-n-span used to be powder in a cardboard box, is now liquid in a plastic bottle. Laundry soap now liquid in a plastic bottle, used to be powered in a box. Potatoe chips and such in plastic bags, used to be wax paper.

Do get me wrong plastic is great for some things, I recycle as much as possible but they is so much more in are daily life it bothers me. I try to do little things like reusable grocery bags most of the time. Disposable razors have switched to a reusable handle only replace blade but doesn't seem enough to make up for all the other that gets thrown away in trash.

How much longer can our world take this increasing non degradable stuff?
I have become very worried about this too. I don’t know why we are not more proactive in banning the use of non essential plastics. In our town, they only recycle #1&2 plastic. The rest goes to a landfill. We are coastal, and the effect of plastic in the ocean is scary. Tybee Island GA, which has one grocery store, and a few convenience stores, tried to ban plastic bags, but failed. What is so hard about using a cloth shopping bag, or a biodegradable paper bag? I will never understand.
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Old 01-06-2019, 07:32 AM
 
1,594 posts, read 553,639 times
Reputation: 1545
I share the concerns with plastics and even glass but not sure what the solution is?

The wife and I generate a whole bunch of plastics, (and glass) bottles, newspapers, boxes, etc within a relatively short time period and we have a curbside recycling pickup every other week where we happen to live.

When driving through our neighborhood on pick up day, it is apparent that less than 20% of the houses have put out any recycling, glass, plastics or paper products! What does that tell you? You know they must have products to recycle if they love and eat so their only reason is laziness, so what is the solution?
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