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Yes, the electric load is not constant and there are peaks, but with solar energy (with current batteries), the load peaks will be from zero when the solar panels work to the maximum when the generation of solar energy is reduced (evening, night, bad weather).
I'm not even sure what you are trying to say, but the main value of PV to the grid comes on hot summer days. That's when PV production is the highest and utility loads are also the highest. It's also the time when the grid is under the most strain and PV (distributed generation) reduces that strain. Grid connected solar does not need battery backup. All system operate with substantial reserve capacity to compensate for changes in output of dispatched plants.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikJac
To smooth the peaks, the current "solar energy" is also not suitable, because you can not guarantee the constant generation of energy (for example, it rains all month or a sandstorm has started). And for smoothing the peaks, at the moment the best solution is a pumped-storage hydroelectricity. Without cheap batteries with energy density (for example like fossil fuels) it is impossible to create (with reasonable money) a grid energy storage for gigawatts.
Actually PV is ideally suited to help in most locations with the summer peak. The peak occurs on the hot days when the sun is shining. When it's cloudy and raining, there isn't a high peak and you don't need solar. Think these thing through so you don't make silly posts.
While pumpe storage is handy, it isn't available in most areas. 99% of the decent pumped storage locations are already in use. One doesn't need batteries, though they will be beneficial when economic. Simple cycle combustion turbines are already up and available in all control areas. They start about as easily as your car engine.
That's when PV production is the highest and utility loads are also the highest.
As I know, usually the maximum load is in the evening hours, when the generation of solar energy is reduced
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever
When it's cloudy and raining, there isn't a high peak and you don't need solar. Think these thing through so you don't make silly posts.
People just returned from work and turned on the ovens,lighting, household appliances, and it does not depend on the weather and solar activity or in the morning people wake up, go to the kitchen, warm up breakfast, make coffee and so on.
As I know, usually the maximum load is in the evening hours, when the generation of solar energy is reduced
Peak looks to be about 1900. That's about 1.5 hours from sunset in the summer, but even where the peak extends past sunset, the system can accommodate the decline, one just shifts from solar to simple cycle gas turbine for a couple hours and then you shut those down for the night. The important thing is from about 0600 until 2000 the grid has been supported with pv, which has essentially a zero operating cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikJac
People just returned from work and turned on the ovens,lighting, household appliances, and it does not depend on the weather and solar activity or in the morning people wake up, go to the kitchen, warm up breakfast, make coffee and so on.
Air conditioning load in most of the country drives the system peak and while residential consumers are coming home, businesses are shutting down. One load is increasing while another is dropping.
None of your concerns are new. The people, like me, in the industry know how to handle pv on the grid. It's not a problem when properly done. Anything can be a problem if done improperly, but coal nuclear problems end up being much larger. When a nuclear plant goes offline like happened in Boston during the most recent winter storm, the grid loses 600-1200 MW.
Peak looks to be about 1900. That's about 1.5 hours from sunset in the summer, but even where the peak extends past sunset, the system can accommodate the decline, one just shifts from solar to simple cycle gas turbine for a couple hours and then you shut those down for the night.
It can not just be a simple gas turbine, because you have a peak load, and you forget about the unpredictability of solar generation and for reliable and uninterrupted supply of electricity you have to build "conventional" power plants. And if you build "conventional" power plants, then solar energy does not bring big profits on an industrial scale in this case. But when an efficient and low-cost energy storage solution is invented, solar energy will be used on an industrial scale and is likely to be a major part of the world's energy sources.
Sure you can rely on a simple cycle gas turbine. They are already available in case a nuke or coal plant takes 1000 MW offline. If solar is unavailable we just use the installed reserve capacity. We have been doing this for over fifty years.
Sure you can rely on a simple cycle gas turbine. They are already available in case a nuke or coal plant takes 1000 MW offline.
Probably, I do not understand your idea, and on a concrete example it will be clearer. We have an "abstract" city, which has an average energy consumption of 1 GWh and peaks in the morning and in the evening 1.5 GWh. With the current technological development of PV, we can't handle without "traditional" power plants, at least because of the night.
And my question is: How much energy can be "covered" by the PV and how much energy is needed from "traditional" power plants, for reliable power supply around the clock 365 days a year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever
We have been doing this for over fifty years.
Accoding to the US energy information administration the share of solar energy in the total electricity net generation for 9-Month Total in 2017 was about 2%:
Total Solar Electricity Net Generation 60,887 (Million Kilowatthours),
Electricity Net Generation: Total (All Sectors) 3,042,231 (Million Kilowatthours)
What have you been doing all these fifty years? . But of course it was joke and I am really looking forward when PV became cheaper than "traditional" energy and hope that will happen in my lifetime
Probably, I do not understand your idea, and on a concrete example it will be clearer. We have an "abstract" city, which has an average energy consumption of 1 GWh and peaks in the morning and in the evening 1.5 GWh. With the current technological development of PV, we can't handle without "traditional" power plants, at least because of the night.
And my question is: How much energy can be "covered" by the PV and how much energy is needed from "traditional" power plants, for reliable power supply around the clock 365 days a year.
You are mixing terms. We are concerned with both power and energy. Power is expressed in terms of watts and energy in watt-hours. When you misuse those terms it's not really possible to understand your question, but I'll try. How much solar each control area can utilize depends upon the specific loads in that area so there is no one answer. My guess is that up to about 15% of summer peak power requirements we will have no problem. Implementing dispatchable load will increase the the ability to use pv so with a smarter grid we will be able to go higher. As you point out nationwide we are at about 2% penetration from an energy standpoint so we have lots of headroom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ErikJac
Accoding to the US energy information administration the share of solar energy in the total electricity net generation for 9-Month Total in 2017 was about 2%:
Total Solar Electricity Net Generation 60,887 (Million Kilowatthours),
Electricity Net Generation: Total (All Sectors) 3,042,231 (Million Kilowatthours)
What have you been doing all these fifty years? . But of course it was joke and I am really looking forward when PV became cheaper than "traditional" energy and hope that will happen in my lifetime
What we have been doing for 50 years is operate reserves specifically to compensate to the loss of production from a dispatched plant. Generation plant trip off line reasonably often. The reason we don't have outages is that we have reserves ready to fill in. Solar and wind are just additional resources that those same reserves will accomodate.
There are already many applications where solar is the most economic source of power. The cost of providing central station electricity varies widely even within a given territory. It costs $millions per mile to run new distribution and transmission lines. PV is an ideal source in many cases. We increasingly see streetlights, roadside call boxes, radio transmitters and a host of other applications where solar is far and away the cheapest approach. The price of pv cells has dropped from an early cost of about $75/watt to about 30¢/watt today. Wake up and smell the coffee. Your future is here.
Sure you can rely on a simple cycle gas turbine. They are already available in case a nuke or coal plant takes 1000 MW offline. If solar is unavailable we just use the installed reserve capacity. We have been doing this for over fifty years.
Wow I can't believe I can agree with you on something!! We have for many years installed and relied on simple cycle turbines to support outages,grid support etc. Today's grid operations however are slowly shifting away from using simple cycle turbines and instead we're seeing a better value in highly efficient natural gas fired reciprocating engines which are going in across the country.
Wow I can't believe I can agree with you on something!! We have for many years installed and relied on simple cycle turbines to support outages,grid support etc. Today's grid operations however are slowly shifting away from using simple cycle turbines and instead we're seeing a better value in highly efficient natural gas fired reciprocating engines which are going in across the country.
I agree there are some nice natural gas fired ICEs available as well.
They charge you their customer X amount for the electric which is marginally lower than what you would pay the electric company*, they pocket the tax credits paid for by the taxpayer driving up taxes and sell the green credits where applicable paid for by the ratepayer driving up the rates of other electric customers. Elon Musk has made a mint doing this.
These companies only operate is states where the state incentives and regulations are very lucrative.
*Read the fine print on the lease, there is some substantial obligations for the homeowner.
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. But of course it was joke and I am really looking forward when PV became cheaper than "traditional" energy and hope that will happen in my lifetime
!! We have for many years installed and relied on simple cycle turbines to support outages,grid support etc. Today's grid operations however are slowly shifting away from using simple cycle turbines and instead we're seeing a better value in highly efficient natural gas fired reciprocating engines which are going in across the country.
