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Old 01-10-2018, 08:34 PM
 
3,673 posts, read 4,936,279 times
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So i want to make sure im getting a decent deal...let me know if im missing anything please...

10.065 kw system producing 11,750 kwh annually.
Total price is $24,156 ($2.40/Watt) or $16,909 after federal incentives.
There are 33 panels that are 305watts each and the whole system and all components are warrantied for 25 years. Roof for 10 years.

My usage is about 19000kwh annually, partly because i use 5,000 kwh a year for charging our electric car.

Any thoughts? Am i getting a decent deal?
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:17 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,777 posts, read 1,060,097 times
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a)5000kW-h/yr @ $0.15/kW-h = $750/y for "fuel." @$2.50/gal for gas & a car getting 20mpg, your break even point is driving 6000 miles per yr.-- if you're in CA and paying $0.25/kW-hr, then that's 10,000 miles-- if you drive less than that, your E-car is costing you extra.

b) Your solar array will produce adequately for 25 yrs. If you take your $16,900 today and put it in the stock market, what will it be worth in 25 yrs? If you spend it on the solar, will you regularly invest your monthly electric bill savings to offset your lost investment potential for those 25 yrs?

c) After 25 yrs, you'll have to replace the solar system, draining your capital once again.

d) Be careful of the sales-people. Solar arrays only produce about 2/3 of the nominal power output claimed. According to your figures, your system is rated to produce 32kW-h/d. Your usage is 38kW-h/d PLUS your car. (52kW-r/d) Your system would only save you $1/d minus lost investment potential of your capital.

You make the call.
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:49 AM
 
Location: DC
6,528 posts, read 6,461,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
So i want to make sure im getting a decent deal...let me know if im missing anything please...

10.065 kw system producing 11,750 kwh annually.
Total price is $24,156 ($2.40/Watt) or $16,909 after federal incentives.
There are 33 panels that are 305watts each and the whole system and all components are warrantied for 25 years. Roof for 10 years.

My usage is about 19000kwh annually, partly because i use 5,000 kwh a year for charging our electric car.

Any thoughts? Am i getting a decent deal?
You haven't told us what your host utility charges for energy and whether they support net metering. $2.40/kW is a good price for a system fully installed.

Assuming you'll roll the net purchase price into your mortgage so there won't be out of pocket costs. If you do that your cost to compare would be about 13/kWh neglecting the green attributes. You can absorb that value or in many areas sell your green attributes. In Washington DC solar generated green attributes (SRECs) sell for about 40/kWh. In NJ they are about 25/kwh.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:30 AM
 
3,673 posts, read 4,936,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
a)5000kW-h/yr @ $0.15/kW-h = $750/y for "fuel." @$2.50/gal for gas & a car getting 20mpg, your break even point is driving 6000 miles per yr.-- if you're in CA and paying $0.25/kW-hr, then that's 10,000 miles-- if you drive less than that, your E-car is costing you extra.

b) Your solar array will produce adequately for 25 yrs. If you take your $16,900 today and put it in the stock market, what will it be worth in 25 yrs? If you spend it on the solar, will you regularly invest your monthly electric bill savings to offset your lost investment potential for those 25 yrs?

c) After 25 yrs, you'll have to replace the solar system, draining your capital once again.

d) Be careful of the sales-people. Solar arrays only produce about 2/3 of the nominal power output claimed. According to your figures, your system is rated to produce 32kW-h/d. Your usage is 38kW-h/d PLUS your car. (52kW-r/d) Your system would only save you $1/d minus lost investment potential of your capital.

You make the call.

Thanks guys. Appreciate the feedback.

a. Cost per kwh is $0.115 here in northern VA. but honestly, i didn't buy an electric car for the gas savings....it was a factor, but not 'the reason'. I spend about $50-60 bucks a month on 'electricity' for a super fast sleek car. I spent only about $100 or $120 when i had my regular gas car. I'd drive this car even if it cost more to operate (which it doesn't) lol but that's beside the point, and not really the focus of my thread.

b. the answer is yes. i would invest the money i'd save monthly....my bank account already 'feels broke' because all my money automatically gets invested after bills are paid...so this would just be an addition to that.

c. 25 years is the warranty but the system is described as being 'functional and producing a guaranteed amount all the way to 40 years. and I don't anticipate living at this house for even 25 years...so i'm not too worried about it. The other estimates i've seen and received all were in the $30k range and the next family will likely not have an electric car, meaning that their 'offset' will be very close to 100% which is very attractive....So i'm hoping to be able to recoup some, if not most of the $16k investment when i sell the house.

d. good point. the offset is currently at 61%. there are guarantees in place in the contract, saying that if it doesn't produce x and y amount annually over the next 25 years, the company will pay me the difference. I decided to go with a reputable company (Tesla) so i'm more comfortable with their service and guarantee.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
You haven't told us what your host utility charges for energy and whether they support net metering. $2.40/kW is a good price for a system fully installed.

Assuming you'll roll the net purchase price into your mortgage so there won't be out of pocket costs. If you do that your cost to compare would be about 13/kWh neglecting the green attributes. You can absorb that value or in many areas sell your green attributes. In Washington DC solar generated green attributes (SRECs) sell for about 40/kWh. In NJ they are about 25/kwh.

So the utility costs are $0.115 and perhaps a bit less during off hours, which is when i charge the car (2AM). Dominion Energy does offer free net metering which is awesome and to my surprise, actually free! This would mean that i would actually be able to use all of the kwhs produced and not have to forfeit any due to variance in my system's supply and my home's demand.

I currently don't have a mortgage and will be paying for the system in cash. The SRECs are very low in virginia, hence me opting NOT to sell them to Tesla for a mere $200! I'll hold on to them for the hopes that they'll grow in time and hopefully net me a larger amount.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:56 AM
 
Location: DC
6,528 posts, read 6,461,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
So the utility costs are $0.115 and perhaps a bit less during off hours, which is when i charge the car (2AM). Dominion Energy does offer free net metering which is awesome and to my surprise, actually free! This would mean that i would actually be able to use all of the kwhs produced and not have to forfeit any due to variance in my system's supply and my home's demand.

I currently don't have a mortgage and will be paying for the system in cash. The SRECs are very low in virginia, hence me opting NOT to sell them to Tesla for a mere $200! I'll hold on to them for the hopes that they'll grow in time and hopefully net me a larger amount.
Dominion Energy has a solar repurchase program where they will buy 100% of you panels output at 15/kWh. That looks like a better deal financially than net metering at 11.5/kWh.

Recognize that by paying cash for your system you walk away from the tax benefits of deductible interest payments. Obviously a personal choice. Some people just don't like debt.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:04 AM
 
3,673 posts, read 4,936,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Dominion Energy has a solar repurchase program where they will buy 100% of you panels output at 15/kWh. That looks like a better deal financially than net metering at 11.5/kWh.

Recognize that by paying cash for your system you walk away from the tax benefits of deductible interest payments. Obviously a personal choice. Some people just don't like debt.
Thank you!
i had no idea about the 15/kwh purchase. Seems like a no brainer.....how could that even make sense though....that would imply that their own production costs them more than 15cents...and then they're turning around and selling it for 11.5? i'm sure i'm missing something or thinking about it incorrectly.

but assuming what you said is still the case, i would be a fool not to go that route.....

about your second point.....i did toy with the idea of using my HELOC and thus deducting the interest....but that's kind of like spending a 100 bucks on something you don't need, just to be able to take advantage of the 20 dollar rebate! lol (a bit different cause i guess i could technically use the cash i'm going to spend and invest it...but i guess that all depends on risk tolerance and etc.)

The cash has been sitting there for years, first as an emergency fund, but then i have other cash in brokerage accounts and a large HELOC that i could tap into any time...so i think spending this cash on the system makes more financial sense than it just sitting there in capital 1 earning 0.1 or whatever the hell it is...lol
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:56 AM
 
Location: DC
6,528 posts, read 6,461,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
Thank you!
i had no idea about the 15/kwh purchase. Seems like a no brainer.....how could that even make sense though....that would imply that their own production costs them more than 15cents...and then they're turning around and selling it for 11.5? i'm sure i'm missing something or thinking about it incorrectly.

but assuming what you said is still the case, i would be a fool not to go that route.....

about your second point.....i did toy with the idea of using my HELOC and thus deducting the interest....but that's kind of like spending a 100 bucks on something you don't need, just to be able to take advantage of the 20 dollar rebate! lol (a bit different cause i guess i could technically use the cash i'm going to spend and invest it...but i guess that all depends on risk tolerance and etc.)

The cash has been sitting there for years, first as an emergency fund, but then i have other cash in brokerage accounts and a large HELOC that i could tap into any time...so i think spending this cash on the system makes more financial sense than it just sitting there in capital 1 earning 0.1 or whatever the hell it is...lol
The Dominion program is a limited program. I don't know the details but the price looks attractive. Here is the link https://energy.gov/savings/dominion-...rchase-program

As far as the debt, let me just explain how I operate. I'm retired, have a large house with a large mortgage, have a stock portfolio, which I live off now along with social security. I'm invested in indexed funds that generate long term returns of 10%. I have a mortgage at 3.5%. Even before considering taxes, I make 6.5% more on my money than I pay for my mortgage. In my mind it makes no sense to take money from my retirement portfolio to pay off the principle balance on my mortgage.

For you the question is what would the $17 thousand you are planning to spend earn if you didn't spend it on the solar system using your HELOC. An S&P index fund has delivered an average return of 10% over about the last 30 years. It sounds like your investment portfolio could use some tweaking. And most importantly, what's your comfort level with the debt.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:11 AM
 
3,673 posts, read 4,936,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
The Dominion program is a limited program. I don't know the details but the price looks attractive. Here is the link https://energy.gov/savings/dominion-...rchase-program

As far as the debt, let me just explain how I operate. I'm retired, have a large house with a large mortgage, have a stock portfolio, which I live off now along with social security. I'm invested in indexed funds that generate long term returns of 10%. I have a mortgage at 3.5%. Even before considering taxes, I make 6.5% more on my money than I pay for my mortgage. In my mind it makes no sense to take money from my retirement portfolio to pay off the principle balance on my mortgage.

For you the question is what would the $17 thousand you are planning to spend earn if you didn't spend it on the solar system using your HELOC. An S&P index fund has delivered an average return of 10% over about the last 30 years. It sounds like your investment portfolio could use some tweaking. And most importantly, what's your comfort level with the debt.
Thanks. Looks interesting....have to wait and see what happens after the june expiration date i guess....

After maxing my 401k and IRA (for both wife and I), i invest the rest of my left over funds in stocks and ETFs.
Currently 90+% of my money in my 401k is in S&P 500, totaling about $425k
about $75k in IRA money is also in S&P500 at about 80%, with the rest in Tesla stocks.

I paid off the mortgage on the 600k house about 3 years ago because i wanted the peace of mind of not having a mortgage and even though i definitely lost out on some mad returns over the past 2-3 years, i'm happy with my choice. It was a calculated risk i took based on my risk tolerance.

The rest of my money ~$400k is in the market in brokerage accounts, mostly in VOO (S&P500 ETF), but also some cash and other stocks.

The ~20k is just sitting there...collecting dust in a MMK. much rather put that to some good use....because i think i have enough cash and liquid assets through the brokerage accounts, credit cards, and two HELOCs that i can tap into in case of an emergency. Also, being 36, i think i have the time and can afford to ride the market with most of my money in the market as you suggested.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:15 AM
 
Location: NYC
12,924 posts, read 8,751,901 times
Reputation: 14197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thinking-man View Post
So i want to make sure im getting a decent deal...let me know if im missing anything please...

10.065 kw system producing 11,750 kwh annually.
Total price is $24,156 ($2.40/Watt) or $16,909 after federal incentives.
There are 33 panels that are 305watts each and the whole system and all components are warrantied for 25 years. Roof for 10 years.

My usage is about 19000kwh annually, partly because i use 5,000 kwh a year for charging our electric car.

Any thoughts? Am i getting a decent deal?
Bottomline is you're helping the utilities companies more by offering your rooftop and helping them generate power. It takes a long time to break even and avg homeowner don't stay more than 15 years on a property.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:27 AM
 
3,673 posts, read 4,936,279 times
Reputation: 2422
Quote:
Originally Posted by vision33r View Post
Bottomline is you're helping the utilities companies more by offering your rooftop and helping them generate power. It takes a long time to break even and avg homeowner don't stay more than 15 years on a property.
Not sure i understand your first point.....my roof is just sitting there....not doing much anyways lol
How is me putting solar panels on my roof, and using the generated green electricity and in the process 'buying less electricity from dominion energy' helping the utilities companies?

To your second point about saying at this house long term, yes, you're right. I don't anticipate living at this house for even 25 years...so i'm not too worried about it though.... The other estimates i've seen and received all were in the $30k range and the next family will likely not have an electric car, meaning that their 'offset' will be very close to 100% which is very attractive....So i'm hoping to be able to recoup some, if not most of the $16k investment when i sell the house.
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