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Old 11-27-2018, 01:19 PM
 
Location: DC
6,496 posts, read 6,414,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
That's average retail price. Add in the taxes which average 11cents/kW-hr.


In my estimate, I lowered the price of both electricity and gasoline ~10% for easy arithmetic....Look up "Fermi problem." It may help you gain perspective in analyzing situations.
Nope it's average price paid by a residential customer.
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Old 11-27-2018, 01:27 PM
 
16,564 posts, read 13,980,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post

BTW- I can't remember the reference source right now, but by some accounting methods, a wind mill or solar installation won't produce enough energy to replace the energy it took to build them.
Not true.

https://www.popsci.com/science/artic...icity-they-use

In 2 years all solar will collectively made more energy than it took to build, even including the old ones and we will be on the net gain on the global scale.

https://www.popsci.com/science/artic...icity-they-use
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Old 11-27-2018, 01:35 PM
 
16,564 posts, read 13,980,777 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto View Post
Show us your work.


The energy in gasoline and coal is contained in the C-C and the C-H bonds. It's released as those bonds are oxidized (co2 & h2o waste products). doesn't make a heckuvalot of difference what the actual configuration of the fuel molecule is to start with.
Of course it matters. The number of bonds, the type, the hydration, all effect how much energy and waste is produced when something is burned.

Quote:
As I said in my first post here, the actual kinetic energy of the vehicles are essentially the same.
Ignores the fact that many EVs have systems built in to transfer some of that "lost" energy back into useable energy like regenerative braking making them more efficient than ICEs.


Quote:
What's the energy efficiency of a coal fired plant (65% lost as heat) + the efficiency of the transmission process (5% lost as heat) + efficiency of the charging process (10%+ lost as heat)? It seems that at least 80% of the coal's chemical energy never makes it to the drive wheels.


I would calculate that an ICE and an EV powered by fossil fuel sourced juice have about the same co2 output. Now add in the inefficiency of battery power in cold weather and the EV is behind in the race.
Depends on the fossil fuel. Natural gas releases somewhere around less than half the CO2 that coal does, and something like 1/3 less than gasoline so if your EV is powered by electricity from a natural gas plant, it would still be more efficient even accounting for loses during charging and transmission.
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Old 11-28-2018, 02:45 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,769 posts, read 1,025,831 times
Reputation: 5927
-wholesale price-- what the store pays to the supplier for an item
-retail price-- what the customer pays to the store for the item
-sales tax- what the customer pays in addition to the retail price. My monthly elect bill charges me ~15 cents for the juice & delivery costs and another 4cents for tax. Look up WI retail electric rates and they tell you 15cents/kW-hr, ignoring the tax.


Re: heat of combustion- yes, you're technically right. Propane burns hotter/mole than ethane, which is hotter than methane, but for the purpose of estimations, it's an insignificant difference. A burn from touching a NG flame is just as bad for practical purposes as one from a propane flame. Nit-picking.


Re: kinetic energy- cars of equal weight, driven at equal speeds require the same amount of energy. Period.( KE=1/2mv^2) It's great if you can recover some of that energy lost as heat on breaking, but that has nothing to do with my original statement. I also used 20% as the efficiency rating for ICE-- in fact, newer engines are up to 40% making the CO2 footprint of the ICE even more competitive.


Re: payback of energy cost of manufacturing-- I addressed that. At this time, solar cells pay that back in 4 yrs (IF they can operate at 100%capacity. In reality they only average 33%, so payback time would really be 12 yrs, then add in energy cost of other components of the system and you've used up a large part of the system's 20-25 yr useful life. You apparently missed that part of the post.


The whole analysis was based on a statement made by someone else that the carbon footprint of an EV is smaller than that of an ICE even if the electricity comes from COAL. Of course that's not really a question if you're living in the NW where 95% of electricity comes from hydro- and the co2 footprint of running an EV is near zero.

Last edited by guidoLaMoto; 11-28-2018 at 02:55 AM..
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Old 11-28-2018, 06:17 AM
 
Location: DC
6,496 posts, read 6,414,062 times
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DOE analysis says EVs are cleaner even in states with predominantly coal generated electricity. This work is done by people who actually have some expertise in the field.

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/ele...emissions.html
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Old 11-28-2018, 11:54 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,769 posts, read 1,025,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
DOE analysis says EVs are cleaner even in states with predominantly coal generated electricity. This work is done by people who actually have some expertise in the field.

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/ele...emissions.html
ewwr
No, this work is done by people who have an agenda. The Prime Directive of all bureaucrats is to first preserve their own jobs. No Problem = No Job


I will concede that "predominately coal" changes the figures considerably. Newer gas powered plants are 65% efficient compared to 35% for coal. If half the coal plants are replaced by gas, then subtract 15% from the EV side and they win the argument, although it's still close.


Unless all the power is coming from renewables, the small advantage that EVs have in carbon footprint may not be worth the inconvenience at this time. (And keep in mind we're not even arguing the concept & meaning of carbon footprint here. co2 is really good for us.)
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Old 11-28-2018, 05:45 PM
 
Location: A Land Not So Far Away
3,956 posts, read 2,803,855 times
Reputation: 5515
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
DOE analysis says EVs are cleaner even in states with predominantly coal generated electricity. This work is done by people who actually have some expertise in the field.

https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/ele...emissions.html
That's the kicker, and that's why electric cars have to rely so much on coal. So much for the crowd who wants to get rid of gas-powered engines, as well as the coal industry. That's just not happening.
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:30 AM
 
Location: DC
6,496 posts, read 6,414,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malfunction View Post
That's the kicker, and that's why electric cars have to rely so much on coal. So much for the crowd who wants to get rid of gas-powered engines, as well as the coal industry. That's just not happening.
Coal is going away like buggy whips. It will take a few years due to the size of the capital investment, but I'l be very surprised to see additional coal-fire electric plants built in this country. Older ones are being retired at an increasing rate.

Gasoline will be around for a long time, but our consumption will decline as EVs continue to improve.
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Old 11-29-2018, 05:43 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,769 posts, read 1,025,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
Coal is going away like buggy whips. It will take a few years due to the size of the capital investment, but I'l be very surprised to see additional coal-fire electric plants built in this country. Older ones are being retired at an increasing rate.

Gasoline will be around for a long time, but our consumption will decline as EVs continue to improve.

True about coal plants. Economics favor gas. Gasoline/kerosene will stick around until its depleted-- no sense in wasting a good, cheap resource and pouring funds into building a new infrastructure to handle NG for automotive use (an excellent alternative to gasoline).


Your optimism for EVs may be excessive, unless some amazing new breakthrough occurs. Remember that half the country has very cold winters, isn't flat and it's 10 miles to the nearest store.


How you gunna harvest 200 ac of corn a day with a battery powered Tonka Toy? A modern combine burns 2- 3 gal of Diesel fuel per acre (!) That would move an auto ~60 miles, or 1/4th the range of the better EVs....so a combine with that battery pack could work 4 acres until it needed a battery change. That battery pack weighs ~500 lb. A combine harvests ~20 ac/hr ...that means a car-sized battery pack would have to be changed out every 15 minutes.....increase the size of the battery pack to increase time between changes, but that also increases the time & difficulty of the swap....???
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Old 11-29-2018, 05:49 AM
 
Location: Central New Jersey
2,276 posts, read 864,517 times
Reputation: 4010
Both my trucks engines are worked up. I'll take my 9 MPG workhorse and my 11 MPG beast over an electric car any day.
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