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Old 05-03-2019, 11:37 AM
 
550 posts, read 165,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRoadkill View Post
I am addressing the concept that if 100% of the world became climate change believers and we all pitched in to help the human species survive, the easiest and therefore first choice for the vast majority of the human population would be to stop using fossil fuels and massive ranching of cattle and sheep, through adopting a vegetarian lifestyle. But unless your specific local gets its electricity through solar/wind/hydro sources, there would be shortages of power for heating, cooking, etc. It seems this leaves a big chunk of the world to turn to the old fashioned use of burning wood.

The same is true for building new shelters. Without being able to mass produce metals and plastics, most shelters would continue to be made from wood.

All this would lead to an increase in deforestation and carbon-dioxide increases.
Sorry, I must disagree as to your opinion of the best solution to many of the problems facing humanity currently. I have an anecdote to illustrate, if you're interested:

****************
A blind guy was standing at a bus stop waiting on the cross-town. It was a hot day, and he'd been there for a while. Before too long, another guy, his wife, and their seven kids show up and stand behind the first man. The bus eventually pulls up, and the driver informs them there are only eight seats available. The blind guy, being a gentleman, suggests that the wife and kids ride the bus, and he and the husband can walk. As the afternoon is getting hotter, both men are uncomfortable, and the husband is especially irritated by the constant tapping of the white cane on the sidewalk as the first fellow finds his way.

"You know", the husband says, "If you'd put a little rubber at the end of that stick, we wouldn't have to listen to that incessant tapping all the way home".

The blind man replies, "You know, if you'd have put a rubber on the end of YOUR stick, we'd be riding the bus right now".
***************

But there are those who even disagree with the notion of overpopulation - they believe that more humans will lead to ever-faster technological innovations, and we'll "Star Trek" our way out of all of our problems.

I'll be gone in likely 15-25 years, and will probably not know either way. But having no kids, I weighed in with the guy in the story (although not necessarily for environmental reasons, I just never hooked up with a babe I'd be willing to have kids with when I was young).

Also, to clarify, wood is a net carbon-dioxide product, it drinks in CO2 as it grows, and releases it again as it burns or decays. And, there are new, very efficient models of wood stoves that greatly reduce particulate matter being released, wood does NOT have to be a dirty fuel, especially if manufacturing waste is utilized in the form of pellets.
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Old 05-03-2019, 11:46 AM
 
3,114 posts, read 799,958 times
Reputation: 3635
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColoGuy View Post
It all depends. Nobody knows what the future has in store. While I am a prepper I would not normally encourage urban folks to become rural preppers. Every generation has thought it was the final generation. Yet here we are.
Well, yeah because every generation has been subject to propaganda that there's some asteroid (modern era) or apocalypse (when philosophers had more clout). Rockefeller said it: "the time to buy is when there's blood in the streets!" think of all the Y2K-related sales, and even entire companies founded just to sell prep kits. Two generations before that - bomb shelters.

I think energy source-diversity is a good idea. Solar panels, to me, are a way to have a backup energy source, but the sales pitch in my neck of the woods about ANY kind of ROI is ridiculous. I pay 9.6 cents per kWh with no peak or seasonal rates. Year round, 'round the clock. The panels will have lost efficiency by the end of their service life and you'll never reach payback in your lifetime - even after incentives. Think of what a graph of a mathematical constant looks like. Almost almost almost... nope! It literally would have made more money sitting in the poor excuse for savings accounts that banks offer today. I think solar is a critical part of one's personal grid, don't get me wrong, just not an investment.

Uninterrupted power is my goal. One day, I'd like to have a quarter-cycle ATS to a battery bank, with just enough capacity to carry full load until the generator starts. It's almost 2020, and we're still at the mercy of commercial power.
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
4,882 posts, read 5,763,319 times
Reputation: 8243
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasRoadkill View Post
I am addressing the concept that if 100% of the world became climate change believers and we all pitched in to help the human species survive, the easiest and therefore first choice for the vast majority of the human population would be to stop using fossil fuels and massive ranching of cattle and sheep, through adopting a vegetarian lifestyle. But unless your specific local gets its electricity through solar/wind/hydro sources, there would be shortages of power for heating, cooking, etc. It seems this leaves a big chunk of the world to turn to the old fashioned use of burning wood.


The same is true for building new shelters. Without being able to mass produce metals and plastics, most shelters would continue to be made from wood.


All this would lead to an increase in deforestation and carbon-dioxide increases.
Sorry, I thought you were asking a serious question. Shouldn't have wasted my time.
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Old 05-03-2019, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,135 posts, read 2,950,766 times
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It would be really tough to run my AC by burning wood.
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Old 05-03-2019, 05:38 PM
 
550 posts, read 165,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engineman View Post
It would be really tough to run my AC by burning wood.
Watch the movie "Mosquito Coast", I believe, with Harrison Ford, late 1980's. The protagonist proposed adsorptive-based cooling ("Ice from Fire") near the equatorial jungles of North America. Very common form of refrigeration in the U.S. (typically using ammonia salts as coolant) before mechanical chillers took over in the 70's. Enjoy that cold beer.

Before that, ice blocks from lakes in the northern states were sawed out and packed in sawdust for use in refrigerators during the summer, my Old Man told me stories of his doing that to make money when he was a kid. Remember the Stooges episode where Curly was tasked with carrying a block of ice up to a house on top of a million or so steps, and a cubic foot shrunk down to the size of an ice cube by the time he reached the top? His solution was to start out with two blocks, and naturally, he ended up with two ice-cube sized pieces at the top. The three greatest influences in my scientific education and adult life were Moe, Larry, and Curly (and it shows).
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Old 05-03-2019, 05:51 PM
 
3,114 posts, read 799,958 times
Reputation: 3635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly Q. Bobalink View Post
Watch the movie "Mosquito Coast", I believe, with Harrison Ford, late 1980's. The protagonist proposed adsorptive-based cooling ("Ice from Fire") near the equatorial jungles of North America. Very common form of refrigeration in the U.S. (typically using ammonia salts as coolant) before mechanical chillers took over in the 70's. Enjoy that cold beer.

Before that, ice blocks from lakes in the northern states were sawed out and packed in sawdust for use in refrigerators during the summer, my Old Man told me stories of his doing that to make money when he was a kid. Remember the Stooges episode where Curly was tasked with carrying a block of ice up to a house on top of a million or so steps, and a cubic foot shrunk down to the size of an ice cube by the time he reached the top? His solution was to start out with two blocks, and naturally, he ended up with two ice-cube sized pieces at the top. The three greatest influences in my scientific education and adult life were Moe, Larry, and Curly (and it shows).
I have heard that ammonia-based refrigeration is still in place for the freezer sections in big grocery-chain warehouses. Not stores, perhaps. But the hubs that receive stock from vendors and need to keep 100,000 square feet at 0 degrees.

The old "swamp chiller" method is better than nothing, but I can already tell how accustomed I've grown to cool, dry air in my house. Maybe a little too attached!
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Old 05-03-2019, 06:18 PM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,769 posts, read 1,034,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
Doesn't that depend on whether that tree was alive when you chopped it down?

No.


A living tree is continually removing co2 from the air. It stores it as wood until it dies (naturally or by being harvested). If it's allowed to rot away naturally, it may take a hundred years for fungi & bacteria & insects & worms etc to oxidize the wood completely (slow oxidation) to return the C to a the air as co2, or it may take just a few minutes if it's set on fire (fast oxidation) to get the co2 back into the air.


Moderator cut: pejorative

Coal/petroleum and limestone deposits OTOH are formed from plants that fell in swamps and were buried away from oxygen, or, for limestone, the calcium carbonate shells of plankton and other shelled plants & animals that died, filtered down to the bottom of the sea and were buried so they couldn't be dissolved or oxidized. THAT carbon has been sequestered and kept from participating in the carbon cycle for millions of years.

I once did a Fermi Solution (estimates based on orders of magnitude) to see if America could use wood to power our cars. (Wood gas was used to power cars in Europe during WW II). Taking estimates of just good lumber reserves (ie- not counting all the branches of trees or of brush etc) in the US would give us enough to run our vehicles for a century WITHOUT replacing any trees...and trees, of course are easily renewed. It could be done, but wood gas autos are a PITA for various reasons.


More importantly: if going off- grid is the answer, what was the question? Fossil fuels allowed us to save our forests. Europe was almost completely deforested to provide fuel for heating and cooking up until coal came into use in the 19th century. Fossil fuels powered our new factories & transportation since the Industrial Revolution, allowing us to live longer, healthier, safer lives. It gave us unprecedented prosperity....


Those who think we are about to lose our Natural Environment spend too much time in The Asphalt Jungle. You really oughta get out more. There's plenty of Nature left.

Last edited by harry chickpea; 05-03-2019 at 11:21 PM..
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Old 05-03-2019, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
1,284 posts, read 1,267,810 times
Reputation: 1264
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddm2k View Post
I think energy source-diversity is a good idea. Solar panels, to me, are a way to have a backup energy source, but the sales pitch in my neck of the woods about ANY kind of ROI is ridiculous. I pay 9.6 cents per kWh with no peak or seasonal rates. Year round, 'round the clock. The panels will have lost efficiency by the end of their service life and you'll never reach payback in your lifetime - even after incentives. Think of what a graph of a mathematical constant looks like. Almost almost almost... nope! It literally would have made more money sitting in the poor excuse for savings accounts that banks offer today. I think solar is a critical part of one's personal grid, don't get me wrong, just not an investment.
Another issue is that unless you buy them (and I can pay a lot of electric bills for the $20K that they would cost me), you have to lease them. If you sell your house and the new buyer doesn't want to assume the payments, you are stuck paying for someone else's solar panels because you signed a lease agreement.
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Old 05-04-2019, 04:53 AM
 
Location: The Driftless Area, WI
2,769 posts, read 1,034,882 times
Reputation: 5940
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curly Q. Bobalink View Post
Watch the movie "Mosquito Coast", I believe, with Harrison Ford, late 1980's. The protagonist proposed adsorptive-based cooling ("Ice from Fire") near the equatorial jungles of North America. Very common form of refrigeration in the U.S. (typically using ammonia salts as coolant) before mechanical chillers took over in the 70's. Enjoy that cold beer.

Before that, ice blocks from lakes in the northern states were sawed out and packed in sawdust for use in refrigerators during the summer, my Old Man told me stories of his doing that to make money when he was a kid. Remember the Stooges episode where Curly was tasked with carrying a block of ice up to a house on top of a million or so steps, and a cubic foot shrunk down to the size of an ice cube by the time he reached the top? His solution was to start out with two blocks, and naturally, he ended up with two ice-cube sized pieces at the top. The three greatest influences in my scientific education and adult life were Moe, Larry, and Curly (and it shows).

Ammonia is used in large scale refrigeration applications because it's much cheaper than HFCs & such. To avoid using Mother Nature as your source of ice, you need to be able to power a piston, taking advantage of The Ideal Gas Law nRT = PV to extract heat from a volume of air to cool your refrigerant.


A swamp cooler uses evaporation to carry away heat. The ancient Romans used to trickle water over their brick buildings to cool them. It's better than nothing, but it works best where water is scarce & humidity low.. Not very efficient.


My earth berm house has no AC and we're more comfortable with that than with hard-on-the-arthritis powered AC.

Last edited by guidoLaMoto; 05-04-2019 at 05:03 AM..
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Old 05-04-2019, 01:11 PM
 
3,114 posts, read 799,958 times
Reputation: 3635
Quote:
Originally Posted by orca17 View Post
Another issue is that unless you buy them (and I can pay a lot of electric bills for the $20K that they would cost me), you have to lease them. If you sell your house and the new buyer doesn't want to assume the payments, you are stuck paying for someone else's solar panels because you signed a lease agreement.
I hope no one signs a lease agreement for solar panels
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