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Old 10-03-2014, 12:29 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,764 posts, read 16,835,798 times
Reputation: 9316

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@randomparent....I've noticed again and again that those who resort to putting something or someone down, is a thinly disguised attempt to lift themselves out of a self induced state of misery. The problem with this approach to feeling better is that it ALWAYS fails.
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Old 10-03-2014, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,536,189 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
People trade convenience for energy and then use terms like energy efficient to hide the fact that it is using it. Like clean diesel, cleaner gasoline and the list goes on and on.It is easy to use a dish pan and far more green than any dish washer made. Can you argue that?
You can also wash clothes in a tub with a plunger, but that has the same drawbacks as washing dishes by hand... it doesn't do as good a job, and it uses a lot of time that could be devoted to something more productive. And like I said before, doing a full load in a modern dishwasher saves water over hand washing, which is an even more critical environmental resource than energy in many western states.

Quote:
We didn't have all the environmental problems not so long ago as we do now. Of course, everyone didn't have a dish washer, TVs in every room, heated pools, all electric this and that either.
Nope, and we didn't have all these people, either. But guess what? We have to deal with what we have in front of us today.

Quote:
While there is nothing wrong with using the most energy efficient products available, it is folly to think using any of them contributes to a better environment. Therein rests the hypocrisy.
And herein lies the fundamental issue with you slinging around the term hypocrisy so loosely, when it doesn't really mean what you think it means. It definitely doesn't mean having to make the choices you would make in that situation or else be labeled a hypocrite, as you seem to think. There is nothing about being environmentally aware that demands that one move into an unheated, unlit teepee and forego the comforts of a modern home. And adopting the Reduce, Reuse, Recycle mantra of contemporary "Green" thinking, and doing one's best to make conscious decisions about how one lives given the entirety of what you know doesn't mean you become all-knowing or infallible about one's choices.

Quote:
Don't fall into the "D" trap of thinking everything said is about you or me or anyone else. It is about being green in general and realizing the facade it has come to be. The "D" trap in case you don't know if when someone follows you around making sure they post right after you do because they are fixated on you.
Ohmigard, thanks for the warning. I certainly wouldn't want to fall into a trap like that. Look out!! :Eek:

On the other hand, when I see repeat violations of the principles of polite debate here, and serial cases of wrong mindedness and poor logic, or disparagement of whole groups of people due to a poster's bias, I do like to bring some critical thinking and logic to bear on it before it gets out of hand.

Sorry, but some people just work harder than others to earn a good, swift rebuttal.
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
15,561 posts, read 24,894,377 times
Reputation: 20780
there is no such thing as an energy efficient dish washer, nor clothes dryer for that matter,.


I cant believe people are fooled because something says energy efficient.

please.

washing dishes by hand uses less water and zero electricity than a dish washer, anyone that doesnt believe that is totally mistaken

as far as drying clothes, i cant for the life of me understand why anyone would purchase a machine and then every time it is used it uses gas and or electricity, when a clothesline does it for free. that to me completely baffels me. is it really so hard to hang clothes?


and I love when people say they give the dish a quick rinse then put it in the dishwaher, oh yeah, that one is too easy, i would get banned
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Old 10-08-2014, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,536,189 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
there is no such thing as an energy efficient dish washer, nor clothes dryer for that matter,.
Sorry, but verified studies actually show that a good modern dishwasher uses less water and less energy than hand washing does.

Quote:
The short answer is that running a new Energy Star dishwasher loaded to capacity is the best, most efficient method of doing the dishes.

Natural Resources Defense Council - NRDC: The Great Dishwasher Debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler
washing dishes by hand uses less water and zero electricity than a dish washer, anyone that doesnt believe that is totally mistaken
Sorry, but verified studies with current models show otherwise.

Quote:
Save energy and water.
Thought you were efficient? A new ENERGY STAR qualified dishwasher uses less than half as much energy as washing dishes by hand and saves nearly 5,000 gallons of water a year!
https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm...dwash_dishwash
What many people overlook is that heating all that water for the typical wash-rinse-wash-rinse style of handwashing uses energy. But even the most efficient hand-washing method, using a sink or pan full of water, simply can't beat the dishwasher. It's a close second, but the modern dishwasher is still better.

Quote:
As a baseline, remember that water flows out of your tap at a rate of 3 to 5 gallons per minute. New Energy Star-qualified dishwashers use as little as 3 gallons of water and 1 kilowatt-hour of energy per load. New machines not only use less water and energy but are also better at cleaning dishes, and manufacturers recommend against rinsing dishes by hand before loading a washer. This practice can waste up to 20 gallons of water, while the machine's rinse cycle requires only 1 to 2 gallons. But if you must rinse your dishes beforehand, use cold water instead of hot.

Water..... Electricity
1. New Energy Star machine..... 3-5 gallons..... 1 kWh

2. Efficient hand-washing..... Up to 8 gallons..... 1 kWh

3. Older machine..... Up to 15 gallons..... 2-3 kWh

4. Regular hand-washing..... 27 gallons..... 2.5 kWh

NRDC: The Great Dishwasher Debate
And because dishwashers raise the temperature of the water to 140 degrees, they are better at disinfecting dishes. So you get cleaner dishes, free up a lot of personal time, and save both energy and water. It may be counterintuitive for you, but a modern Energy Star dishwasher is actually the better choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler
as far as drying clothes, i cant for the life of me understand why anyone would purchase a machine and then every time it is used it uses gas and or electricity, when a clothesline does it for free. that to me completely baffels me. is it really so hard to hang clothes?
Consider that not everyone can do that...

I'd love to line dry, but where I live it rains frequently, so you can't just leave clothes hanging all day while you go to work. And the humidity is so high clothes can mold before they air dry inside.
Others simply don't have a place to do it... apartments, condos, proximity to dusty activities, etc.
And most crazy making of all, some HOAs prohibit line drying, because it looks bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler
and I love when people say they give the dish a quick rinse then put it in the dishwaher, oh yeah, that one is too easy, i would get banned
Agreed, scraping plates into the compostables bin is best, no matter what method you use.

.
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Old 10-08-2014, 01:14 PM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
8,698 posts, read 11,796,252 times
Reputation: 3711
Quote:
As a baseline, remember that water flows out of your tap at a rate of 3 to 5 gallons per minute. New Energy Star-qualified dishwashers use as little as 3 gallons of water and 1 kilowatt-hour of energy per load. New machines not only use less water and energy but are also better at cleaning dishes, and manufacturers recommend against rinsing dishes by hand before loading a washer. This practice can waste up to 20 gallons of water, while the machine's rinse cycle requires only 1 to 2 gallons. But if you must rinse your dishes beforehand, use cold water instead of hot.

Water..... Electricity
1. New Energy Star machine..... 3-5 gallons..... 1 kWh

2. Efficient hand-washing..... Up to 8 gallons..... 1 kWh

3. Older machine..... Up to 15 gallons..... 2-3 kWh

4. Regular hand-washing..... 27 gallons..... 2.5 kWh

NRDC: The Great Dishwasher Debate
I suppose that this is assuming that the water is constantly flowing for the duration of handwashing.
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Old 10-08-2014, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
15,561 posts, read 24,894,377 times
Reputation: 20780
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
Sorry, but verified studies actually show that a good modern dishwasher uses less water and less energy than hand washing does.





Sorry, but verified studies with current models show otherwise.



What many people overlook is that heating all that water for the typical wash-rinse-wash-rinse style of handwashing uses energy. But even the most efficient hand-washing method, using a sink or pan full of water, simply can't beat the dishwasher. It's a close second, but the modern dishwasher is still better.



And because dishwashers raise the temperature of the water to 140 degrees, they are better at disinfecting dishes. So you get cleaner dishes, free up a lot of personal time, and save both energy and water. It may be counterintuitive for you, but a modern Energy Star dishwasher is actually the better choice.



Consider that not everyone can do that...

I'd love to line dry, but where I live it rains frequently, so you can't just leave clothes hanging all day while you go to work. And the humidity is so high clothes can mold before they air dry inside.
Others simply don't have a place to do it... apartments, condos, proximity to dusty activities, etc.
And most crazy making of all, some HOAs prohibit line drying, because it looks bad.



Agreed, scraping plates into the compostables bin is best, no matter what method you use.

.


I'm sorry, but I do not agree with any of your answers. "verified studies", your kidding?????, by who? the dishwasher maker? less energy? how could it?, as soon as it goes "on", it is using energy....my hands use less energy, they do it for free.

I am also not worried about disenfecting my dishes, as I am older than dirt, raised 3 boys and never had a dish washer and we are all healthy...so the crap about disinfecting dishes, doesn't impress me either.


So as far as a dishwasher saving water and energy, sorry, I dont buy any of that crap.

Now for those that can't have a clothesline outside, and some people can't, I know that, but you can always have a clothes rack indoors, it does the same thing. I dry clothes in my apartment all winter long on a rack when i cannot use my clothesline outside. I stick it in a corner, in no ones way, and no problem.
how do you think they dried clothes before the dryer was invented? A dryer is the absolute most wasteful thing that uses energy in the world. and nothing wrong with using it when you don't feel like hanging clothes, i know not everyone likes to do that....I don't recycle, and I don't care.

and as for a clothesline looking bad, i actually dont think they look bad. I think most people look bad, i rather look at a string of towels on a clothesline than someone ugly face. LOl, but I digress.
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Old 10-08-2014, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
15,561 posts, read 24,894,377 times
Reputation: 20780
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler
washing dishes by hand uses less water and zero electricity than a dish washer, anyone that doesnt believe that is totally mistaken



Sorry, but verified studies with current models show otherwise.


how can that be possible? if Im using zero electricity?


are you a dishwasher salesman?
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Old 10-08-2014, 01:59 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,536,189 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler
washing dishes by hand uses less water and zero electricity than a dish washer, anyone that doesnt believe that is totally mistaken

Sorry, but verified studies with current models show otherwise.

how can that be possible? if Im using zero electricity?
Really? So you're washing your dishes in cold water?

I thought the point was clear, but let me try again, since you missed it. The way most people wash dishes by hand involves a lot of rinsing with hot water under a running faucet. The latest dishwashers use far less water than it takes to fill a sink. That's why typical handwashing technique uses far more water, and that water has to be heated. Your personal mileage may vary, but I'm talking about what average people actually do, as shown by extensive surveys.

Quote:
are you a dishwasher salesman?
Not at all. I'm just an educated consumer who prefers proven facts over assumptions and guesses.


P.S. my grandmother who cooked on a woodstove her entire life always disinfected her dishes after washing with scalding water. You may not care, but it's SOP everywhere in the modern world. Matter of fact, if a restaurant fails to disinfect their dishes they can spread disease or get their license revoked. That's why modern dishwashing machines, some of which can disinfect an entire load of dishes while using less than a gallon of water, are considered so efficient by comparison.

.

Last edited by OpenD; 10-08-2014 at 02:17 PM..
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Old 10-08-2014, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,536,189 times
Reputation: 10573
Considering the source...

One of the earliest lessons I learned in evaluating what others had to say was to "Consider the Source." I'm always on the lookout for conflicts of interest, hidden agendas, and biased inputs in the references I use to support my posts here.

On one side, I've learned not to trust anything relating to the environment that comes out of the Koch Brothers or any of their various organizations, because the overwhelming evidence is that they don't care about the environment at all, and are only interested in sucking up more wealth through promotion of their fossil fuel interests. You cannot trust a thing they say.

On the flip side, there are organizations which have a balanced view and a proven track record of unbiased reporting, such that you can absolutely trust what they have to say. In my opinion NRDC - the Natural Resources Defense Council - is one such organization, which is why I quoted their figures about the efficiency of dishwashers above. To me they are a trusted source.

NRDC is a top-rated non-profit charity organization, and in their own words NDRC is...

Quote:
...the nation's most effective environmental action group, combining the grassroots power of 1.4 million members and online activists with the courtroom clout and expertise of more than 350 lawyers, scientists and other professionals.

The New York Times calls us "One of the nation's most powerful environmental groups." The National Journal says we're "A credible and forceful advocate for stringent environmental protection."

Our dedicated staff work with businesses, elected leaders, and community groups on the biggest issues we face today. Our priorities include:
  • Curbing Global Warming and Creating the Clean Energy Future
  • Reviving the World's Oceans
  • Defending Endangered Wildlife and Wild Places
  • Protecting Our Health by Preventing Pollution
  • Ensuring Safe and Sufficient Water
  • Fostering Sustainable Communities

About the Natural Resources Defense Council | NRDC
And the Energy Star site I quoted is a government site, not a for-profit industry site, and everything it posts complies with the international Energy Star standards. In other words, it's another source I consider trustworthy.

Separating the gold from the dross on the internet is not always easy, but considering the source and favoring the most trustworthy sites goes a long way towards validating the truthful information, and striking down the bunk.

.
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:06 PM
 
7,281 posts, read 8,832,318 times
Reputation: 11419
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler
washing dishes by hand uses less water and zero electricity than a dish washer, anyone that doesnt believe that is totally mistaken



Sorry, but verified studies with current models show otherwise.


how can that be possible? if Im using zero electricity?


are you a dishwasher salesman?
And how many people really use a disk washer as the instructions state? They don't. Half filled washers are probably the typical use.

Yeah, if everyone did everything the way the manufacturers said they should be done lots of things would be different.

What we all know is that it doesn't work that way.
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