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Old 10-08-2014, 06:09 PM
 
7,280 posts, read 10,917,839 times
Reputation: 11491

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
@randomparent....I've noticed again and again that those who resort to putting something or someone down, is a thinly disguised attempt to lift themselves out of a self induced state of misery. The problem with this approach to feeling better is that it ALWAYS fails.
Have you by chance noticed that what you said applies equally to both sides of most threads and not just one? Just by chance?

Did you by chance happen to notice the ones that immediately or soon thereafter reply to each and every post made by others when when they aren't engaged?

Sort of like the little lost puppy looking for attention?
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,969 posts, read 28,350,584 times
Reputation: 10757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Have you by chance noticed that what you said applies equally to both sides of most threads and not just one? Just by chance?

Did you by chance happen to notice the ones that immediately or soon thereafter reply to each and every post made by others when when they aren't engaged?

Sort of like the little lost puppy looking for attention?
I know you are talking about me, but I don't care, because you're even wrong on this point. And since you have said you ignore everything I say, I guess I have the freedom to reply any way that I want to.

To be honest I don't particularly care about you personally, but I do care about people littering this forum with half-truths, untruths, unsupported opinions, misinformation, and the like. When somebody posts bad information here, especially when it contains attacks on other people, either as individuals like myself, or with blanket name calling such as "greener hippies" or "tree huggers" or "liberals" or the like I think it just hangs in the air like a bad stink until somebody else offers a rebuttal.

If someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'm happy to provide that service when I'm able. And it's not just you I respond to, but to anyone who posts misinformation or other junk here.

It's a public forum, so it's not like you have to be speaking directly to me for me to be "engaged." And haven't you noticed yet that I don't attack people or call them names the way you frequently do?

No, of course not. But I'm sure that others do.
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Old 10-08-2014, 06:43 PM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,316,143 times
Reputation: 22904
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
And how many people really use a disk washer as the instructions state? They don't. Half filled washers are probably the typical use.

Yeah, if everyone did everything the way the manufacturers said they should be done lots of things would be different.

What we all know is that it doesn't work that way.
In the Green Living forums, I think it's safe to assume that those of us who post are attentive to such matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack Knife View Post
Have you by chance noticed that what you said applies equally to both sides of most threads and not just one? Just by chance?

Did you by chance happen to notice the ones that immediately or soon thereafter reply to each and every post made by others when when they aren't engaged?

Sort of like the little lost puppy looking for attention?
I have been nothing if not respectful to you even as we disagree. Furthermore, I am interested in these topics, so I monitor the relevant threads, contributing when I have something to add. I would think the same is true for you. There is certainly no dearth of posts attributable to your username here either.
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:42 PM
 
Location: Upstate NY 🇺🇸
36,754 posts, read 14,771,171 times
Reputation: 35584
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
You might be right about the H2O use of dishwashers in general, but any dishwashing machine would be hard pressed to use less H2O than I use washing them by hand. I am a water miser. Additionally, my sweat equity puts no extra strain on the power grid or on my wallet.
Exactly. But as someone pointed out, many people don't want to give up their conveniences, so they convince themselves that they're "being green." Latest example that made me chuckle: the Keurig-bots who're telling us on the women's boards how they're discovering ways to reuse the non-recyclable little cups that are ending up in landfills.

Hypocrisy is alive and well among the greenies. At least it's good for a laugh.
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Old 10-08-2014, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,841 posts, read 18,965,453 times
Reputation: 9585
Delahanty wrote: Hypocrisy is alive and well among the greenies. At least it's good for a laugh.

Hypocrisy is alive and well period! Laughter is good for the soul.
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Old 10-08-2014, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,969 posts, read 28,350,584 times
Reputation: 10757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delahanty View Post
Exactly. But as someone pointed out, many people don't want to give up their conveniences, so they convince themselves that they're "being green."
Obviously you didn't bother to read the research I posted, in which careful study by the Natural Resources Defense Council showed that an efficient modern dishwasher saves water AND saves energy AND does a better job than handwashing. And frankly, they're the last people I would expect to endorse a machine if it were anything but true.

Take a look for yourself at the whole article...

NRDC: The Great Dishwasher Debate

Quote:
Hypocrisy is alive and well among the greenies. At least it's good for a laugh.
It might be funny, if the stakes were not so serious, that anti-environmentalists are so eager to disregard proven facts and reliable research in order to make their snickering points about people they feel superior to for one reason or another.

But what a small percentage of outliers do or don't do doesn't move the needle much one way or another. It's what the great mass of average users do that will determine the overall outcome. And for average users, a late model Energy Star dishwasher will not only save water AND save energy AND do a better job AND save time AND be more convenient, but it will save a substantial portion of its purchase price over the lifetime of the appliance.

See, you don't have to avoid all modern conveniences in order to be environmentally smart, nor will the public go along with it.

Last edited by OpenD; 10-08-2014 at 10:25 PM..
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Old 10-09-2014, 03:52 AM
 
41,815 posts, read 50,920,524 times
Reputation: 17863
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
Really? So you're washing your dishes in cold water?
I've never seen a dishwasher hooked to the cold water line. Since they are electric for some people it's going to be far cheaper if they have a natgas water heater for example. In my case it's 180 degree water direct from domestic hot water coil on the coal boiler. Hot water cost me almost nothing.

I would tend to agree on average you are probably going to use more water handwashing the 27 gallons seems very high.
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Old 10-09-2014, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
18,408 posts, read 31,532,830 times
Reputation: 27873
with regards to energy, as soon as the dishwasher is turned on it is using energy. my hands don't cost anything.


I don't care what you or you reports say.
it is cheaper to use the faucet and my hands, and i use less water than a dish washer.


with regards to the energy savers, it is all a advertising gimmick that people buy into to. Sure they are probably more energy efficient than they were 40 years ago, but the minute it is turned on, IT is using energy.
same with a dryer...............................I dont know why this certain poster cant grasp that concept.
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Old 10-09-2014, 06:43 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,316,143 times
Reputation: 22904
If it were just me, I agree, but with five people, most of whom are inattentive to such matters, it is unlikely we could do better washing by hand. A dishwasher is a must, so we use the most water and energy efficient version available. I'm okay with that. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. We're not perfect. Sometimes, we make great progress in one area while back-sliding in another.

I go on an annual personal retreat each summer, living in a tiny and rustic hermitage. I produce no trash and consume little to no water or fossil fuels. It's easy when it's just me. I can walk to town, hike the mountain right outside my door, live on lentils I "cook" by soaking in water until soft and vegetables I pull from the communual garden. Cleaning my one pot, one bowl, and utensils doesn't take much water at all. I wear the same clothing all week and wash my underclothes in the sink, drying them on a rack in the window. When I return to suburbia, the contrast is a shock, and I'm often irritated by the waste I see all around me.

Here's the thing: what I do on my retreat is simply impossible for a family in the 'burbs with careers to manage, a home to maintain, and children to raise. So I aim for better, not perfect. I'll give up the heavily-packaged convenience foods, walk more, and drive less. I'll hang dry my family's clothes when possible, weed my garden by hand rather than spraying insectisides, and use a rotary mower on my small lawn. I'll open the windows rather than run the air conditioner. And I'll constantly be on the lookout for other ways to reduce our footprint and integrate them if possible at this stage of our lives.

But the dishwasher? It stays.

Last edited by randomparent; 10-09-2014 at 06:59 AM..
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Old 10-09-2014, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,969 posts, read 28,350,584 times
Reputation: 10757
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I've never seen a dishwasher hooked to the cold water line.
Sorry, I should know by know that ironic humor doesn't work so well on the internet, even when you attach emoticons to indicate you're being humorous...

My intended point, simply enough, was that the poster's claim that she didn't use any energy handwashing her dishes failed to account for the energy required to heat the water.

This chart from energystar.gov is a little too *USA TODAYish* for my taste, but it does illustrate an important point, that the latest EnergyStar dishwashers, over a 10 year span, uses substantially less water and less energy than typical handwashing does. And that saves enough money, $431 on average, to pay a substantial portion of the cost of the machine, leaving quite a reasonable residual cost for the considerable time savings and convenience offered by the machine.

Notice how the energy cost alone for handwashing, on average, is nearly double that of the dishwashing machine, BECAUSE of the cost of heating so much more water, and that the water cost alone, on average, is almost as much as the entire cost of running a dishwasher. It's quite a dramatic difference.



https://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm...dwash_dishwash
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