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Old 10-09-2014, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
15,564 posts, read 24,899,254 times
Reputation: 20780

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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
If it were just me, I agree, but with five people, most of whom are inattentive to such matters, it is unlikely we could do better washing by hand. A dishwasher is a must, so we use the most water and energy efficient version available. I'm okay with that. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. We're not perfect. Sometimes, we make great progress in one area while back-sliding in another.

I go on an annual personal retreat each summer, living in a tiny and rustic hermitage. I produce no trash and consume little to no water or fossil fuels. It's easy when it's just me. I can walk to town, hike the mountain right outside my door, live on lentils I "cook" by soaking in water until soft and vegetables I pull from the communual garden. Cleaning my one pot, one bowl, and utensils doesn't take much water at all. I wear the same clothing all week and wash my underclothes in the sink, drying them on a rack in the window. When I return to suburbia, the contrast is a shock, and I'm often irritated by the waste I see all around me.

Here's the thing: what I do on my retreat is i,possible for a family in the 'burbs with careers to manage, a home to maintain, and children to raise. So I aim for better, not perfect. I'll give up the heavily-packaged convenience foods, walk more, and drive less. I'll hang dry my family's clothes when possible, weed my garden by hand rather than spraying insectisides, and use a rotary mower on my small lawn. I'll open the windows rather than run the air conditioner. And I'll constantly be on the lookout for other ways to reduce our footprint and integrate them if possible at this stage of our lives.

But the dishwasher? It stays.


lol, Im not arguing that one should not use it. there are just some things that one doesnt want to do, and if that means you just will not wash dishes, I totally get it.

I never owned a diashwasher, and now living in an apartment building, we cant have them anyway because of pipe issues....and space issues but it is only 2 of us, so dish washing isnt that big a deal...

my point was that it isnt energy efficient.....no matter what the brand it is. but I agree with you, and get you.


I hang my clothes on the line, I like to do it, I enjoy doing it......so I'm green in that aspect, but I dont recycle anything. nothing. it all goes in on bag and goes out, i dont not care......
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Old 10-09-2014, 07:14 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,539,229 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightcrawler View Post
with regards to energy, as soon as the dishwasher is turned on it is using energy. my hands don't cost anything.
With regards to energy, as soon as you turn on the hot water tap you are using energy.

Quote:
I don't care what you or you reports say.
it is cheaper to use the faucet and my hands, and i use less water than a dish washer.
I don't doubt that you do personally, but the average user? Not at all. And the 163 F final rinse in a Paykel Dish Drawer, for example, is far above normal temperature range for human hands, causing 2nd and 3rd degree burns in 1/2 second exposure, but superior for disinfecting. For many people the perhaps $40 per year cost for energy is well worth it for the time saved, convenience, and superior cleaning capability. Not for you? Then don't buy one. It's that simple.

Quote:
with regards to the energy savers, it is all a advertising gimmick that people buy into to. Sure they are probably more energy efficient than they were 40 years ago, but the minute it is turned on, IT is using energy.
same with a dryer...............................I dont know why this certain poster cant grasp that concept.
EnergyStar is not an advertising gimmick, it's an international government standard, designed to foster more efficient appliance design and provide meaningful energy cost data to people who are contemplating a purchase.

And careful scientific research provided the results I've posted. I don't know why you can't grasp the idea that a large scale scientific study can be more accurate for the average user than your personal experience is.
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Old 10-09-2014, 08:11 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
15,564 posts, read 24,899,254 times
Reputation: 20780
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
With regards to energy, as soon as you turn on the hot water tap you are using energy.



I don't doubt that you do personally, but the average user? Not at all. And the 163 F final rinse in a Paykel Dish Drawer, for example, is far above normal temperature range for human hands, causing 2nd and 3rd degree burns in 1/2 second exposure, but superior for disinfecting. For many people the perhaps $40 per year cost for energy is well worth it for the time saved, convenience, and superior cleaning capability. Not for you? Then don't buy one. It's that simple.



EnergyStar is not an advertising gimmick, it's an international government standard, designed to foster more efficient appliance design and provide meaningful energy cost data to people who are contemplating a purchase.

And careful scientific research provided the results I've posted. I don't know why you can't grasp the idea that a large scale scientific study can be more accurate for the average user than your personal experience is.


ok ok, simmer down, its ok............
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Old 10-09-2014, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,764 posts, read 16,837,299 times
Reputation: 9316
nightcrawler wrote: I dont recycle anything. nothing. it all goes in on bag and goes out, i dont not care......

Then you are not worthy of the greenie label. You are turquoise at best. Your flamers in this thread must be so embarrassed.
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Old 10-09-2014, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn New York
15,564 posts, read 24,899,254 times
Reputation: 20780
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmicWizard View Post
nightcrawler wrote: I dont recycle anything. nothing. it all goes in on bag and goes out, i dont not care......

Then you are not worthy of the greenie label. You are turquoise at best. Your flamers in this thread must be so embarrassed.
BUT, BUT, BUT, I hang my clothes, doesnt that count for something.


i also live on the 4th floor of a walk up and I am older than dirt.....


ok ok, im not green, i accept turqioise
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Old 10-09-2014, 11:21 AM
 
39,191 posts, read 40,579,931 times
Reputation: 16071
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
Notice how the energy cost alone for handwashing, on average, is nearly double that of the dishwashing machine, BECAUSE of the cost of heating so much more water, and that the water cost alone, on average, is almost as much as the entire cost of running a dishwasher. It's quite a dramatic difference.
Again 27 gallons seems very excessive to me. I'm actually in a situation to know. I'm helping my Grandmother get over a back problem. I fill jugs of water at my house because it's well water si I know how long it takes to fill 27 gallons which is a very long time. I'm also washing her dishes because she doesn't have a dishwasher.... There is no way it's 27 gallons. Perhaps 8 to 10 at the most.
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Old 10-09-2014, 12:09 PM
 
Location: The analog world
17,087 posts, read 9,800,340 times
Reputation: 22736
When my previous dishwasher died last year, I replaced it with a new KitchenAid dishwasher that uses recycled water for its initial rinse. It uses 1.64 gallons of water per normal cycle. On average, I wash one full load per day for my family of five. I checked my kitchen faucet to see how long it would take to fill a 1-1/2 gallon container and whether or not that quantity of water would accomodate washing dishes by hand.

It took about 45 seconds for my faucet to fill the basin in a divided sink with 1-1/2 gallons of hot water, not including warm up time, which took about another thirty seconds and yet another gallon of water. The hot water filled the sink to a depth of about 1-1/2 inches. To accomodate the number of dishes my family uses in a typical home-cooked meal, I would require at least another inch of soapy water for a total of 2-1/2 inches, which is ~2-1/2 gallons, and I still need to rinse the dishes. Recall please that my kitchen faucet pumps out two gallons of water per minute.

Even if I'm extremely conscientious about water usage and fill up another basin with just enough water to rinse everything, I'm using five gallons of water, plus what needs to run to get it hot, at an absolute minimum. Compare that to the 1-2/3 gallons my dishwasher uses, and the dishwasher comes out ahead on water usage every single time.

Electricity is another issue entirely. Certainly, my elbow grease doesn't require any energy beyond what I consumed at dinner, but I can easily reduce what's used by opting out of the drying cycle and letting the dishes air dry. However, even then, I'm left with a conundrum. Do I waste water or electricity? Here in Colorado, I always choose water savings over energy savings, so the dishwasher it is.

I'm glad I cleared that up for myself. No more guilt over dishwasher use in this house!

Last edited by randomparent; 10-09-2014 at 01:08 PM..
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Old 10-09-2014, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Volcano
12,971 posts, read 23,539,229 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Again 27 gallons seems very excessive to me. <snip>... There is no way it's 27 gallons. Perhaps 8 to 10 at the most.
I agree that the worst case of 27 gallons seems high, but it's not implausible. The NRDC data mentioned tap flow rates of 3 - 5 gpm. At the 5gpm rate, 27 gallons only takes 5.4 minutes. At 3gpm it's 9 minutes. I've seen people turn on the tap and wash dishes for 10 minutes or longer with the water running the whole time. I call it clueless, but then again, there are some people who don't even bother to recycle if you make it easy for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
It took about 45 seconds for my faucet to fill the basin in a divided sink with 1-1/2 gallons of hot water, not including warm up time, which took about another thirty seconds and yet another gallon of water. The hot water filled the sink to a depth of about 1-1/2 inches. To accomodate the number of dishes my family uses in a typical home-cooked meal, I would require at least another inch of soapy water for a total of 2-1/2 inches, which is ~2-1/2 gallons, and I still need to rinse the dishes. Recall please that my kitchen faucet pumps out two gallons of water per minute.

Even if I'm extremely conscientious about water usage and fill up another basin with just enough water to rinse everything, I'm using five gallons of water, plus what needs to run to get it hot, at an absolute minimum. Compare that to the 1-2/3 gallons my dishwasher uses, and the dishwasher comes out ahead on water usage every single time.
Excellent, factual, real life experience reinforcing what the studies by neutral parties have already shown.

Very refreshing!
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