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I don't have a problem with organic milk being priced higher in the stores. The organic farmers should be recieving double the price they do for all the "hoops" they got to jump through and all the regulations they must follow.
I agree. They should get more money for jumping through the hoops and the Naturally Certified Organic label is going to really undermine what they have accomplished. It is just a marketing ploy to help some niche markets get started in reality.
But at the same time, some of the organic rules are silly and amount to maketing schemes as well. If All4seasons buys a gallon of organic milk from Farm A that had pressure treated fence posts BEFORE going to certified organic, or Farm B that got pressure treated fence posts after being organic...what does that matter to the quality of milk? It doesn't, but Farm B would lose its organic certification. At the same time if Farm A's production dropped to a low level, they could indeed revert back to non organic dairy cows until they got their production levels back up. That was what happened when the demand for organic out did the supply. When it was discovered that some incredible loop holes existed, the people began to realize that organic milk was not as perfect as they thought. Of course this also happened when the economy slipped and people's discretionary income fell.
As a dairy farmer myself, I guess what seems silly to me is that whether it is organic milk or conventional milk, there are no antibiotics in the milk either way. Artificial growth hormones are in BOTH types because its a naturally occurring thing inside a cow. Yes we do not add AGH's to the cows to increase milk production like some conventional farmers do, but it is indeed in both types of milk. As for fertilizer, again we do have the ability to use synthetic fertilizers, but why would we when we have plenty of dairy cow manure to do that. We do use GM corn seed, but so does organic milk farmers. As someone said today over on Agday, its pretty much hype.
Last edited by BrokenTap; 03-23-2009 at 11:54 AM..
PS: looked at the Maine thread, like the CSA idea. Healthier for city/town folks who don't have time to grow. Better for me with my tiny harvest to sell that any large store won't accept, and of course all middlemen folks are eliminated.
It's a common idea that kind of falls flat. You can indeed eliminate the middle man legally, but so many people do not realize that when they eliminate the middle man, they must do his job too. It is pretty easy to sell a few animals for profit directly, but with each passing year as that number increases, it becomes harder and harder to sell increasing numbers of animals. Doubling the number of sales does not automatically mean doubling profits.
As I stated in that thread, remaining small indefinitely is not an option because the cost of living, and those darn property taxes catch up with you, usually in time with age reigning in the old carcass we are given.
Personally I think you can make it, but so many people just think getting rid of the middle man will make their farm profitable. Not so, read up on marketing and hone your skills. It will be in your best interest.
It's a common idea that kind of falls flat. You can indeed eliminate the middle man legally, but so many people do not realize that when they eliminate the middle man, they must do his job too. It is pretty easy to sell a few animals for profit directly, but with each passing year as that number increases, it becomes harder and harder to sell increasing numbers of animals. Doubling the number of sales does not automatically mean doubling profits.
As I stated in that thread, remaining small indefinitely is not an option because the cost of living, and those darn property taxes catch up with you, usually in time with age reigning in the old carcass we are given.
Personally I think you can make it, but so many people just think getting rid of the middle man will make their farm profitable. Not so, read up on marketing and hone your skills. It will be in your best interest.
BT, you also keep forgetting that I indeed plan to stay small indefinitely. Our living won't fully come from agriculture. If someone wants to grow a small business, then you need a strategy and a marketing plan and a plan for growth, and increasing involvement of bureacracy. I understand.
But as I see it, a different business model is emerging, where people indeed try and avoid the middlemen, founding co-op markets and often either having a niche crop, or supplementing their ag profit with profit from other endeavours.
As a dairy farmer myself, I guess what seems silly to me is that whether it is organic milk or conventional milk, there are no antibiotics in the milk either way. Artificial growth hormones are in BOTH types because its a naturally occurring thing inside a cow. Yes we do not add AGH's to the cows to increase milk production like some conventional farmers do, but it is indeed in both types of milk. As for fertilizer, again we do have the ability to use synthetic fertilizers, but why would we when we have plenty of dairy cow manure to do that. We do use GM corn seed, but so does organic milk farmers. As someone said today over on Agday, its pretty much hype.
Reading things like that makes me to retire in the woods and give up the modernized world...wait... we are already in the woods...
Somewhere back in this thread, Missing did the classification on the allergic reactions starting from fresh milk to pausterization to additives to store milk. I was floored actually because though I'm not that sensitive, my DH is, and for many other things like fruit.
No matter how you slice it, what the customer sees and buys at the store, is bad. You cant begrudge people wanting to get away from "cornucopia" of questionable food. Whether, in their quest for bettering their lives, they succeed or not, is for time to decide.
I personally suck at marketing. I'm great with marketing plans and materials, but the actual talking to people and "selling" part is not my best skill. I need someone else to do that part... enter my hubby, which means he has less time to help me on the farm... or we end up having to hire someone to help us with one or the other. I loathe the idea of dealing with distributor-type middlemen; but not all of them are mongers who buy low and sell high. I'm hoping with a small, local, direct market I won't have to get into the sorts of situations that larger, distributed, retail markets entail.
I've got more of the business plan that Nuala and some others do... try to stay small by staying local and direct, rather than growing beyond our needs (i.e. no more than is necessary to keep up with other inflating costs like taxes and health care). In some cases, that mean a bit of multi-tasking... either working part/full-time off the farm, or augmenting your farming income with some small home business endeavor (like hand-spinning yarn from your sheeps wool and selling it direct to hobbyists).
As a dairy farmer myself, I guess what seems silly to me is that whether it is organic milk or conventional milk, there are no antibiotics in the milk either way. Artificial growth hormones are in BOTH types because its a naturally occurring thing inside a cow.
OK, if mom is given antibiotics, then there are antibiotic residue in the milk... this works even with humans, which is why nursing moms have to be careful about what medications they take. I'd assume the same would be the case if dairy cows were routinely given non-therapeutic antibiotics or were not required to dispose of milk from animals that were on therapeutic antibiotics.
As for growth hormones, please clarify... is it that tests for rBGH can't tell whether it is naturally occuring or synthetically added? Because "artificial" pretty much eliminates "naturally occuring"... but I do understand that there is naturally occuring BGH in milk, but that some persons pump up the ratio with artificial rBGH.
OK, if mom is given antibiotics, then there are antibiotic residue in the milk... this works even with humans, which is why nursing moms have to be careful about what medications they take. I'd assume the same would be the case if dairy cows were routinely given non-therapeutic antibiotics or were not required to dispose of milk from animals that were on therapeutic antibiotics.
As for growth hormones, please clarify... is it that tests for rBGH can't tell whether it is naturally occurring or synthetically added? Because "artificial" pretty much eliminates "naturally occurring"... but I do understand that there is naturally occurring BGH in milk, but that some persons pump up the ratio with artificial rBGH.
Exactly. Both occur in nature which is a wonderful side effect of probiotics, it boosts the immune system and creates these natural antibiotics. I mean that is what the immune system does...prevent illness via many different ways. The company I buy my probiotics from wanted to put this fact on the bottle, but current marketing laws do not allow that.
As for the AGH, they are merely steroids. They occur in the body naturally, but by given a cow BGH it makes them eat more and thus more food means more milk. It is kind of a misnomer...they are not artificial at all, just administered in high levels that would not be normal. Again we do not do this, but there are times when a cow is sick and needs meds. The withdrawal time given is a time frame when the administered shot reduces down to natural levels. If the med given drops off to normal cow levels, there is no harm, no foul.
Even organic policy states that when an animal is sick, it MUST be given medicines to save its life. It must then be removed from the organic line-up. This may mean being sold off, or the farmer has a conventional side, and an organic side. Ultimately though by treating a cow with meds makes sustainable organic farming as uneconomical. If a cow gets sick, and must be treated, and yet never return to the organic milking parlor...that production loss is gone. It's not cheap to replace cows all the time. The only way to continue to get organic cows is to raise your own, or get replacements. That is what killed organics reputation. The farms could not find replacements and so a huge organic dairy farm in Texas decided to take the loop hole road and buy non-organic cows which it was allowed to do by organic rules. But in doing so it lost all credibility. Suddenly the cat was out of the bag...conventional milk could be sold as organic milk if production dropped. That is not right when the consumer is paying twice as much.
Let it be known, I do not mind giving a cow the occasional medicine to save its life. Hey cows here live to be 15 years old or so. But just like my daughters, when they are sick I will give them the occasional medicines, but I am not going to give them meds just because they sneeze. This is what I disagree with with feedlots. They are given meds as a preventive medicine to an entire herd regardless of the issue. They do so because they don't have any connection with the animals within their care. As dairy farmers we have a lot of cows, but because we see them 2 times a day, 365 days a year for 10-15 years, we actually know the cows quite well.
Big difference.
The one thing I disagree with though is giving them this one medicine. I can't remember the name of it, but when a cow is in the milking line, the bull will often breed it, causing it lots of stress. Oh the cow likes it, smokes a cigarette afterwords and is all smiles and that, but it is stressed. This tends to cause the cow not to milk very fast when in the milking parlor. Because we milk so many cows, and it takes us 9 hours to do a morning or afternoon milking, we are hurried for time. Instead of waiting for the milk to drop, we give it this medicine that relaxes the cow and causes to milk out faster. Its not a steroid or anything, but I think we should just give the cow a rest and milk it later on in the shift after she's relaxed on her own. Unfortunately its just easier to give it a medicine. I just don't think that is good dairy farming.
Thanks for clarifying I know natural immune system antibodies occur in milk to pass on those resistances to offspring. Not all antibiotics fall into this category though, some are active antagonists to the bacteria (not antibodies - antagonists), not just promoters of good white cells & lymph systems. It's those types of antimicrobial meds that should be reserved only for therapeutic reasons when an animal (or person) is sick, and only if the treatment is appropriate for the actual illness occuring (i.e. antibiotics do nothing for viral or fungal infections because they only work on bacteria). Several of my farmers administer meds when the animal is ill and then keep them on a separate "production line" until after the withdrawal period or forever (depending on product). Note, not all of my farmers are "certified organic", even though they follow common-sense natural/organic methods, and freely disclose whether their animals have received therapeutic doses and whether the product you are purchasing comes from an animal that has ever received them. I don't think I'd trust this honor system if I didn't buy direct from a local farm that I had personally visited though.
I remember, back in the day, that farmers used to use BGH naturally derived from cow cadavers. rBGH is not naturally derived... it's a genetically engineered through recombinant DNA-splicing of E.Coli. Both versions of the steroid have been injected in dairy cows to increase milk production, and both have been called Artificial Growth Hormone... the first is naturally occuring just artificially increased levels by injection, but the rBGH does not and cannot occur naturally (which gets us back into the GMO clash again).
So, there's actually a post-coital cow qualude out there... amazing! I agree with you, I don't think that's good farming either. Just put the ol' girl at the end of the line and let her settle herself at her own pace. Seriously, slipping roofies to a cow... we humans have some funny ideas when it comes to forcing industrialize "efficiencies" onto organic entities and processes.
I have used it on rare ocasions. It is a muscle relaxant and is also usefull to calm a first calve heifer who is holding her milk and has a full udder.
I have used it on rare occasions. It is a muscle relaxant and is also useful to calm a first calve heifer who is holding her milk and has a full udder.
Yep, that's it. Thanks Marmac.
Of course another trick that works well is to put a few drops of that into the guys coffee that is helping you milk. About 3 drops is all it takes for him to lose control of every muscle and he drop a load in his pants right there. Of course you will be milking cows by yourself for the rest of the shift
As I said, I don't think its a bad medicine, but we could do other things and not use it as much as we do. Ultimately though we just need a new barn. Its not good to be milking 16-18 hours per day. The cows are standing in line at the parlor door instead of eating, drinking water and chewing their cud which has got to be taking its toll on milk production.
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I know natural immune system antibodies occur in milk to pass on those resistances to offspring. Not all antibiotics fall into this category though, some are active antagonists to the bacteria (not antibodies - antagonists), not just promoters of good white cells & lymph systems. It's those types of antimicrobial meds that should be reserved only for therapeutic reasons when an animal (or person) is sick, and only if the treatment is appropriate for the actual illness occuring (i.e. antibiotics do nothing for viral or fungal infections because they only work on bacteria). Several of my farmers administer meds when the animal is ill and then keep them on a separate "production line" until after the withdrawal period or forever (depending on product). Note, not all of my farmers are "certified organic", even though they follow common-sense natural/organic methods, and freely disclose whether their animals have received therapeutic doses and whether the product you are purchasing comes from an animal that has ever received them. I don't think I'd trust this honor system if I didn't buy direct from a local farm that I had personally visited though.
