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Old 06-03-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,070 posts, read 8,961,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UpperPeninsulaRon View Post
It is an interesting thing. My dad used to live a couple of miles from a fairly good sized airport. When I went over there to visit, the jet noise from takeoffs drove me crazy. He said he never heard it. Now he lives about five miles from a rail line and the morning freight whistle drives him nuts. It is a very personal thing.
When I was going to school, my roommate and I had rented a manufactured home which was about a block from the railroad. Amazingly enough, I got use to it.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 51,182,599 times
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While we were in school we lived on a house trailer about 100 ft from a RR track. When a train of empty gravel cars went by visitors would think the darn thing was going to come through the living room. We would just stop talking until it went past.
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Old 06-04-2008, 03:40 PM
 
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I think most who posted to missed the issue of children (not you, not some other adult you know, but actual children). That is the group that seems to have some higher co-relation with childhood leukemia from exposure to high EMF fields.

The field falls off rather quickly by distance, but I would not discount the matter were it very close and had kids involved.
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Old 06-04-2008, 03:42 PM
 
Location: Jonquil City (aka Smyrna) Georgia- by Atlanta
16,248 posts, read 21,240,288 times
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It is bullcrap. The electricians and linemen that work on the stuff day in and day out would all be sick and dropping dead if it would harm your health. Most of them live to be a nice old age if they don't smoke.
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Old 06-04-2008, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,566 posts, read 8,482,922 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevK View Post
It is bullcrap. The electricians and linemen that work on the stuff day in and day out would all be sick and dropping dead if it would harm your health. Most of them live to be a nice old age if they don't smoke.
I agree with KevK. I was at at utility in Iowa and preformed EMF studies on a 69kv line that went right through the local high school buss unloading area. The kids got more EMF in computer lab then they did standing under the line.......
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Old 06-04-2008, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
17,715 posts, read 53,801,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
I agree with KevK. I was at at utility in Iowa and preformed EMF studies on a 69kv line that went right through the local high school buss unloading area. The kids got more EMF in computer lab then they did standing under the line.......
Classic humor. Only someone who works with electricity would call it a buss stop. The word fits, since a buss is an over-sized common drain designed to handle a lot of the current cr*p.

What I find equally humorous, is that many of the people concerned about power lines willing use cell phones to voice their opinions.

Perhaps they need to live in Faraday cages?
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Old 06-04-2008, 05:38 PM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,823,034 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
Classic humor. Only someone who works with electricity would call it a buss stop. The word fits, since a buss is an over-sized common drain designed to handle a lot of the current cr*p.

What I find equally humorous, is that many of the people concerned about power lines willing use cell phones to voice their opinions.

Perhaps they need to live in Faraday cages?
Well, you all are going from dumb to dumber.

Faraday cages reduce Electric fields. Not Magnetic fields. The "M" portion of EMF is Magnetic.

Cell phones are also a very different frequency with very different penetration and cellular (body cells -- not cell phone cells) reactions.
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Old 06-04-2008, 10:05 PM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
17,715 posts, read 53,801,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip T View Post
Well, you all are going from dumb to dumber.

Faraday cages reduce Electric fields. Not Magnetic fields. The "M" portion of EMF is Magnetic.

Cell phones are also a very different frequency with very different penetration and cellular (body cells -- not cell phone cells) reactions.
Electromagnetic fields. Not electric and magnetic fields. Electromagnetic fields.

Interfere with an electric field and you affect the magnetic lines of force and visa-versa. Ever hear of such equipment as transformers and the related hysteresis issues? Ever hear of an electric motor? Both work by moving currents and magnetic force. Ever hear of grounding equipment to reduce RFI?

Knock yerself out... BTW, check the reference citations at the bottom of the paper. The FCC, Congress, and the military have minor issues with your line of thought...

https://www2.sans.org/reading_room/w...hreats/460.php

"Radio frequencies and EMF can enter equipment through ventilation holes, electrical interfaces and the gaps between metal panels. These apertures can admit energy and direct energy into your equipment as an aperture or slot antenna depending on their physical size, geometry and the wavelength (related to the frequency) of the electromagnetic interference.

...

For very delicate or sensitive electronics, Faraday shielding may be appropriate and it can be highly effective. Faraday shielding involves placing the equipment to be protected in a fully enclosed metallic screen room or electrically conductive enclosure. All openings and doors to such a Faraday cage must be properly gasketed with conducting seals and care must be exercised to insure cables entering the room are properly shielded and grounded as mentioned above. A properly engineered and constructed Faraday shield, RF cage or conductive screen room will safeguard electronics within because externally generated electromagnetic fields that could cause damage cannot penetrate it. The mechanism involved is the same as the one that keeps occupants relatively safe in an automobile or aircraft struck by lightning"

It is possible to not only shield 60hz AC with faraday enclosures, but kill cellphone reception. I've been in buildings that do that.

You are correct that various frequencies do have different effects on molecular bonds. Toss a slice of gluten-free bread that uses xanthen gum as a gluten replacement into a microwave, and it'll go from being a crumbly slice to almost a taffy-like consistency. Put a raw egg between two 120vt household wires carrying a significant current and it'll just sit there. Put it between two cellphones in a bad cell area and it'll cook.
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Old 06-05-2008, 11:33 AM
 
5,090 posts, read 9,823,034 times
Reputation: 3955
Quote:
Originally Posted by harry chickpea View Post
Electromagnetic fields. Not electric and magnetic fields. Electromagnetic fields.

Interfere with an electric field and you affect the magnetic lines of force and visa-versa. Ever hear of such equipment as transformers and the related hysteresis issues? Ever hear of an electric motor? Both work by moving currents and magnetic force. Ever hear of grounding equipment to reduce RFI?

Knock yerself out... BTW, check the reference citations at the bottom of the paper. The FCC, Congress, and the military have minor issues with your line of thought...
Let me background you. On my end -- BSEE, MSEE and specialized study in Biomedical Engineering for neural signals and field effects. I sort of really really know this topic. And yes I have done design and research work under and for various agencies you mentioned and more. None of their information disagrees with mine.

But if you would like to background yourself in this even a little bit, here is a very basic Freshman level discussion of EMF >>>

Electromagnetic field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
It is possible to not only shield 60hz AC with faraday enclosures, but kill cellphone reception. I've been in buildings that do that.

Please, again. Faraday cages DO NOT shield against magnetic fields.

for some background on that >>>

Electromagnetic shielding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
You are correct that various frequencies do have different effects on molecular bonds. Toss a slice of gluten-free bread that uses xanthen gum as a gluten replacement into a microwave, and it'll go from being a crumbly slice to almost a taffy-like consistency. Put a raw egg between two 120vt household wires carrying a significant current and it'll just sit there. Put it between two cellphones in a bad cell area and it'll cook.
Well, I did not mention or refer to molecular bonds. Rather towards living organisms. Such as children. Various EMF fields are known to have bad results on living creatures. Can everyone agree on even THAT very basic information? While there are molecular bonds involved, that is just a minor part of the issue.

As far as your "egg" information that you seem to believe, it is covered here >>>

snopes.com: Cooking an Egg Between Two Cell Phones

Quote:
In 2000, the web site Wymsey Welcome published a spoof Wymsey Weekend: A Guide to Mobile Cooking "Weekend Eating: Mobile Cooking" about using two mobile phones to cook an egg.
That was a joke, but by now, I follow you do not know the difference.

Look, seriously, when you are this far down whatever road you are on with no real interest in gaining actual knowledge or information, I am aware that this is a case of throwing pearls before swine on my part.

Some folks lean by reading, some by watching others, and some just need to experience things for themselves. If bad experience is what passes for knowledge, folks can place their own heads inside a functioning microwave and observe their own results.

All I am recommending they keep the kids safe from the grown-ups' foolishness.
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Old 06-06-2008, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
17,715 posts, read 53,801,646 times
Reputation: 29923
Philip T, I think you have missed a few points.

First, the original posts in the thread were about the effects of power lines. Those posts fairly well summarized that current thought is that there is little or no threat from them, with the caveat that some studies with children are inconclusive.

Second, low frequency or static magnetic fields - the type that can penetrate faraday cages (as indicated in one of your wiki articles) have not been considered a significant danger to equipment or people, as far as I have read, and I've read a fair amount on the subject. If you have cites to the contrary, I'd be glad to read them.

Third, the RFI issues with EMF DO seem to be a concern, but as noted, the decay of intensity is rapid around power lines.

Fourth, cellphones are RF emitters that have had rapid introduction, create strong fields near the body at frequencies different than we have used in the past, and we have not had time for many long term studies. Those that have been done are somewhat disturbing.

"Dr. Sadetzki, a physician, epidemiologist and lecturer at Tel Aviv University, published the results of a study recently in the American Journal of Epidemiology, in which she and her colleagues found that heavy cell phone users were subject to a higher risk of benign and malignant tumors of the salivary gland."
Cite:
Heavy Cell Phone Use Linked To Cancer, Study Suggests

Another study
"Earlier studies have shown that mobile phone radiation (radiofrequency modulated electromagnetic fields; RF-EMF) alters protein expression and activity in human endothelial cell line. STUK’s new study is globally unique, because for the first time it has examined whether a local exposure of human skin to RF-EMF will cause changes in protein expression in living people."
Cite:
Radiation From Mobile Phones Changes Protein Expression In Living People, Study Suggests

While I happen to enjoy Snopes, and generally trust them, the egg between two cellphones goes beyond the general concept of a fun urban legend, into the realm of cautionary tale about new technology. As such, the truth is that it becomes an easily understood metaphor for some very complex issues, similarly to the "this is your brain, this is your brain on drugs" frying pan. The metaphor can be correct, even when the expression of it is not.

The humor I expressed is partly in the juxtaposition of two urban legends - you'll die if you live under a power line, and your brain will be fried if you talk on cellphones. The humor is also that there is a subset of people that choose to believe the first, but not the second. Since the two have similar essential qualities, and the choice is based on lifestyle rather than any tenuous logic. I enjoy that people can sometimes have such self-conflicting belief systems. We all do it, it just can be more obvious in some of us.

The serious issue is that without long term studies, we really don't know the risks of cellphone use, while we have a hundred years or more of data on powerlines. For me, having been brought up knowing that the front of CRTs are made of lead glass to stop the electrons from showering the viewer, and getting immediate headaches from ozone when I entered my father's radio station, I'm not too keen on putting a radio transmitter next to my brain and flipping it on for a few hours each month.

If I was planning on having kids, I likewise would not be too keen on a bluetooth system, where the transmitter was now located on or near my belt. If I was a parent with young kids, I would also be one that severely limited their cellphone usage. I consider the possibility that these devices are similar to the x-ray machines that were allowed in shoe stores. They were popular, but people didn't yet understand the risks.

If you want to turn what I've said into some debate over magnetism, and claim that you are casting pearls before swine, go ahead. I'm no longer into flame-wars and I can make a pretty good oinking sound.
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