Windmills The Latest Man Made Environmental Hazard! (mercury, toxic, compare)

[chele123]

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

The misconception that windmills cause massive bird deaths has been disproven in several studies. Older models that were inappropriately placed (in migratory paths, or too close to nesting areas and bodies of water) did cause a relatively large amount of bird deaths 20 years ago... but new designs and more analysis of appropriate placement have shown that bird deaths caused by windmills are lower than any of the following human activities: glass-sided buildings, automobiles, communication towers, pollution, pesticides, and pets.

Even the Audubon Society advocates properly sited wind power: Audubon's Position on Wind Power

Common Eco-Myth: Wind Turbines Kill Birds : TreeHugger
whywind.org - Wind Power Myths
http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/...Fact_Sheet.pdf
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy05osti/37657.pdf
http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publication.../1029-1042.pdf
http://www.nationalwind.org/publicat...collisions.pdf
http://www.focusonenergy.com/data/co...birdsv0207.pdf
http://www.gwec.net/uploads/media/GW...09_English.pdf

The primary issue is proper placement, not that windmills are automatically bird killers.

Finally. I voice of reason!

[CometVoyager]

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

The misconception that windmills cause massive bird deaths has been disproven in several studies. Older models that were inappropriately placed (in migratory paths, or too close to nesting areas and bodies of water) did cause a relatively large amount of bird deaths 20 years ago... but new designs and more analysis of appropriate placement have shown that bird deaths caused by windmills are lower than any of the following human activities: glass-sided buildings, automobiles, communication towers, pollution, pesticides, and pets.

Even the Audubon Society advocates properly sited wind power: Audubon's Position on Wind Power

Common Eco-Myth: Wind Turbines Kill Birds : TreeHugger
whywind.org - Wind Power Myths
http://www.awea.org/pubs/factsheets/...Fact_Sheet.pdf
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy05osti/37657.pdf
http://www.fs.fed.us/psw/publication.../1029-1042.pdf
http://www.nationalwind.org/publicat...collisions.pdf
http://www.focusonenergy.com/data/co...birdsv0207.pdf
http://www.gwec.net/uploads/media/GW...09_English.pdf

The primary issue is proper placement, not that windmills are automatically bird killers.

Yes Glass Buildings, Electrical Towers and even your own house windows do cause bird deaths.

However, the original intent of this thread was to demonstrate how Windmills are just another man made environmental disaster.

For example, the US Fish and Wild Life Service estimates that there are between 30,000 and 60,000 bird deaths a year just from US Windmills. This is an horrific statistic.

Further, all these Windfarms take up a lot of land space and that alone is an environmental mess, with all the concrete pilings and the disruption of pristine environmental locations.

It is actually disgusting just digging up our beautiful country only to put up a VERY INEFFICIENT source of energy!

It is a waste of money as well! T Boone Pickens is a great salesman just as Al "I never lie" Gore. Come on, don't you see the scam that this is??:coo l: If you really believe this windfarm stuff will create more energy and save our planet then you are buying a load of snake oil!

Finally, the National Audubon Society has called for a moratorium regarding the building of any new windfarm.

[rickers]

I had two small birds who were flying close together slam into my living room window. I went out and picked up the stunned birds. I put them into an empty birdcage until they stopped shaking and after they drank some water and started climbing about the cage I opened the cage door and let them fly out the window.
Birds die all the time from all kinds of dangers. I'm am more worried about the mass extinction of the honeybees because if they all go, so will many of us. If I hear the name Peta any more I'm going to puke ! The Audubon Society can call for anything they want, It wont stop any more wind-farms from being built.

[texdav]

Want to bet;all it wil take is going to federal court to get a injunction which has stopped many a project by environmentalist.But I agree windmills are not a big part of solving the energy problem and can get to be like bill board signs in so areas;you just get tried of seeing them. I really doubt we willsee a huge number of windmills across the coutry tho.Seems peole have unrealistic dreams of replacing much of our energu needs withsome of the altenative and acutally really are dreaming about the cost mainly to repalce things like crude.But in the end we will waste alot of money on politcal tungwars but get to a solution when it gets bad enoiugh that peole are hurting more overall.

[CometVoyager]

Originally Posted by rickers

I had two small birds who were flying close together slam into my living room window. I went out and picked up the stunned birds. I put them into an empty birdcage until they stopped shaking and after they drank some water and started climbing about the cage I opened the cage door and let them fly out the window.
Birds die all the time from all kinds of dangers. I'm am more worried about the mass extinction of the honeybees because if they all go, so will many of us. If I hear the name Peta any more I'm going to puke ! The Audubon Society can call for anything they want, It wont stop any more wind-farms from being built.

Reckers, that is a weak argument and has absolutely nothing to do with the thread.

[MissingAll4Seasons]

Originally Posted by CometVoyager

Yes Glass Buildings, Electrical Towers and even your own house windows do cause bird deaths.

However, the original intent of this thread was to demonstrate how Windmills are just another man made environmental disaster.

For example, the US Fish and Wild Life Service estimates that there are between 30,000 and 60,000 bird deaths a year just from US Windmills. This is an horrific statistic.

Yes, the US Fish & Wildlife Service says "...wind turbines kill an estimated 30,000 birds annually". That statistic includes the older, more dangerous ones that sited incorrectly... not just the new ones. Keep in mind that they also estimate window strikes account for 97-976 MILLION bird deaths a year. Their report also estimates communication towers and distribution lines kill 4-5 MILLION birds a year (new data indicates this might be closer to 40-50 million). They also estimate that pesticide poisoning directly results in at least 97 MILLION bird deaths annually, and up to 2 MILLION are killed in oil and wastewater pits annually. Perhaps we should really be focusing on the big killers... compared to those MILLIONS, the 30 THOUSAND that are killed by windmills aren't that bad. Wind turbines could actually SAVE some of those birds by reducing distributed power lines and pollution.

Originally Posted by CometVoyager

Further, all these Windfarms take up a lot of land space and that alone is an environmental mess, with all the concrete pilings and the disruption of pristine environmental locations.

It is actually disgusting just digging up our beautiful country only to put up a VERY INEFFICIENT source of energy!

1) You can plant crops and graze animals all around wind farms, the towers and pilings themselves don't take up much space at all. And certainly are not as destructive and polluting to natural habitat as coal/oil burning plants, oil pipelines, oil refineries and nuclear power plants. Dams and solar farms are better options because they are non-polluting, but they do/can interfere with the land and species habitat/migrations. In comparison, wind turbines don't destroy habitat nearly as much and the land remains arable.

2) The EPA, in conjunction with Audubon and many independent foreign and domestic committees, are doing extensive site surveys for all planned government sponsored wind farms to reduce environmental impact. Many states are now discussing local regulations and inspections for private wind farms.

3) Don't mistake physical limitations for inefficiency. Just because the upper limit of wind power that a turbine can convert to electric is only 59% (closer to 50% because conditions are rarely ideal), doesn't mean that windmills in themselves are inefficient.

Originally Posted by CometVoyager

It is a waste of money as well! T Boone Pickens is a great salesman just as Al "I never lie" Gore. Come on, don't you see the scam that this is?? If you really believe this windfarm stuff will create more energy and save our planet then you are buying a load of snake oil!

Finally, the National Audubon Society has called for a moratorium regarding the building of any new windfarm.

OK, let's just look at reality for a minute. T Boone Pickens is a BILLIONAIRE. That means that, while he's a great salesman, he is also not willing to risk all his money on a venture that isn't proven and won't pay off. The guy didn't get as rich as he is without being a good businessman and using sound business strategy. The fact that he's behind wind power is actually a strong indicator that it's a viable endeavor, not the other way around. His proposed plan might not be 100% accurate or solve all the problems, but at least someone is trying to think about the big picture and do something about it (with a lot of his own money, I might add).

In the early '90's Jan Beyea, President of the Audubon Society at that time, made a public statement calling a moratorium on windfarms. HOWEVER, this has never been the position of the Audubon Society as a whole. (Nat'l Audubon Society and wind development - RENEW Wisconsin) As stated in their official postion (linked above) they support properly sited and constructed wind power because it is drastically less detrimental than other conventional energy sources.

Wind energy is just one piece of the renewable energy strategy. No one technology is going to do it all for us. We're going to need variable combinations of several energy sources depending on location and available resources in order to meet demand. Lowering demand would be the best solution, not eliminating a power source technology that is less dangerous than it's counterparts.

[CometVoyager]

No matter how much you try to rationalize it, windfarms compared to other more cost effective energy sources are a waste of money and create unnecessary environmental hazards. It is absurd to even attempt to claim windfarms are cost effective.

The only way you can rationalize windfarms is because the windfarms are now a pop culture icon of the feel good green movement which has absolutely nothing to do with the environment or creating a more cost effective energy source but more so just naive hyperbole.

[MissingAll4Seasons]

Actually, I've been interested in wind power since I visited Holland 30 years ago... not green pop culture. I've lived with wind power long before it was ever trendy. I find it very interesting that whenever someone offers data that illuminates more of the picture or that refutes previous opinion they are automatically accused of being an ultra-greenie or brainwashed by popular opinion and media. I guess the best way to rationalize your own opinion is to attempt to discredit the other person?!?

Perhaps if you could elaborate on the inefficiency of wind power and which technologies you feel are more cost effective, you would sway more people with your argument. Also, it might also be useful to elaborate on your definition of "cost effective" and "efficient". I don't automatically think you're wrong, but since you haven't provided more substantial data I can't even begin to change my position.

Humans are going to cause an impact on the environment and other species not matter what we do. The objective should be to limit that impact as much as we can. Sometimes that means accepting some smaller losses to eliminate larger ones... even if it appears to cost more initially.

[CometVoyager]

Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons

Actually, I've been interested in wind power since I visited Holland 30 years ago... not green pop culture. I've lived with wind power long before it was ever trendy. I find it very interesting that whenever someone offers data that illuminates more of the picture or that refutes previous opinion they are automatically accused of being an ultra-greenie or brainwashed by popular opinion and media. I guess the best way to rationalize your own opinion is to attempt to discredit the other person?!?

Perhaps if you could elaborate on the inefficiency of wind power and which technologies you feel are more cost effective, you would sway more people with your argument. Also, it might also be useful to elaborate on your definition of "cost effective" and "efficient". I don't automatically think you're wrong, but since you haven't provided more substantial data I can't even begin to change my position.

Humans are going to cause an impact on the environment and other species not matter what we do. The objective should be to limit that impact as much as we can. Sometimes that means accepting some smaller losses to eliminate larger ones... even if it appears to cost more initially.

Briefly, one of the most critical environmental concerns is the destruction of animal habitats and pollution of our fresh water supplies. I will elaborate more about the windfarms as an inefficient and environmental hazard later.

[phantoms]

Originally Posted by sterlinggirl

Solar reflects the light back up and blinds the birds which causes them to fly into wind turbines.