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Old 09-27-2008, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
8,998 posts, read 13,068,752 times
Reputation: 3536

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Okay okay...they did come out with the Prius BUT:




What they claim:Toyota has spent millions of dollars on ads to position itself as a leader in cutting global warming pollution.
The truth is: Toyota says it has cut polluting emissions from its autos. What the company fails to say is that its fleet-wide global warming pollution is higher today than it was 20 years ago. And now it is attempting to block efforts to raise fuel economy standards that would cut more than 200 million metric tons of global warming pollution in 2020 alone.
What they claim: Toyota tells consumers and investors it is making great strides in fuel economy.
The truth is: Toyota has used its Prius to create a corporate image based on innovation and environmental consciousness. But as National Highway Traffic Administration (NHTSA) data shows, Toyota's current fleet-wide fuel economy is lower today than it was 20 years ago around the time CAFE standards were last increased.
While the Prius is a step in the right direction, Toyota is playing a game of one step forward and two steps back. Some other hybrids made by Toyota may not increase fuel economy at all, fooling consumers into believing they are buying an environmentally-friendly car. Reporter Jeff Sabatini wrote in the New York Times:
“ONE question lingers after driving the 2006 Lexus RX 400h: How did it come to this, that Toyota is now selling a hybrid gas-electric vehicle with no tangible fuel economy benefits?
In my test-driving, the Lexus hybrid, which is based on the gasoline-only RX 330, did not achieve better mileage than the 2005 RX 330 that I drove for comparison...
...the RX 400h's failure to deliver, in my experience, even a nominal improvement in gas mileage still seems like a sin of omission.”
New York Times, 7-30-2005

Truth About Toyota - Facts
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Old 09-27-2008, 10:35 PM
 
28,131 posts, read 39,743,122 times
Reputation: 36549
20 years ago? Stupid is as stupid says. You are clueless.
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Old 09-28-2008, 06:02 AM
 
20,793 posts, read 53,845,831 times
Reputation: 10526
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tek_Freek View Post
20 years ago? Stupid is as stupid says. You are clueless.
Not to get into a debate but there is some truth to this. We had an '89 Corolla that got 40/45 mgp, now they are rated at 28/35?
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Old 09-28-2008, 09:44 AM
 
Location: The beautiful Rogue Valley, Oregon
7,252 posts, read 15,278,680 times
Reputation: 9403
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Not to get into a debate but there is some truth to this. We had an '89 Corolla that got 40/45 mgp, now they are rated at 28/35?
Look at the curb weight difference, and that's probably where the gas mileage difference went.

Here's a site that says:
1989 - "The Corolla comes standard with a 5-Speed Manual Overdrive or 3-Speed Automatic transmission and is a front-wheel drive vehicle. It has a curb weight of approximately 2207 lbs. The Non-ABS front brakes are Disc and the rear brakes are Drum..... The 1989 Corolla has standard length of 170.30 inches and a width of 65.20 inches. The Corolla rides 52.40 inches off the ground, with a clearance of inches. Front headroom is 38.40 inches.

2009 - "Weights: curb weight (lbs) 2745...
External dimensions: overall length (inches): 178.7, overall width (inches): 69.3, overall height (inches): 57.7, wheelbase (inches): 102.4, front track (inches): 60.3, rear track (inches): 60.4 and curb to curb turning circle (feet): 35.6


Also, most consumers won't buy a car without whatever options are current, and most cars now have more safety equipment (air bags, crash pillars, special bumpers), heavier, nicer seats, electric adjustments, anti-locks brakes, sound deadening to make the cars quiet (so car doors close with a "thunk" instead of a "bing"), electronic lock systems etc etc.

Also, without being able to read the study first linked: could it be that "fleet wide" pollution is higher simply because they've sold more cars and have a wider range of vehicles? Or, if they are just talking across the line, they've expanded into larger cars and trucks as well.

I remember the Corona and the Hilux truck in the early 70s. Now they have the Tundra and the Highlander and the Avalon, all much larger.
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Old 09-28-2008, 01:56 PM
f_m
 
2,289 posts, read 7,514,841 times
Reputation: 869
I wouldn't really say "we" are supporting them. They were just making what many people wanted to buy apparently. People keep buying the bigger and more powerful cars and luxury vehicles and that's what they made. I had a Honda Civic wagon from 1984, today the Honda Fit is about the same size, but in that time the Civic became much bigger such that the Fit looks tiny. I tend to support Honda more, they refused to make V8 larger vehicles (even though some people complained everyone else was making them, and V6 wasn't enough power), and were the first to sell hybrids in the US, so they still have the highest CAFE mileage rating.
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Old 09-29-2008, 02:29 PM
 
Location: FLG/PHX/MKE
7,288 posts, read 13,441,785 times
Reputation: 11575
Quote:
Originally Posted by golfgal View Post
Not to get into a debate but there is some truth to this. We had an '89 Corolla that got 40/45 mgp, now they are rated at 28/35?
You have to put it into apples/apples terms to draw any reasonable comparison. The 1989 Corolla is rated at 26/32 using the current method used to calculate EPA numbers. And as the previous post said, was hundreds of pounds lighter than the present model. Furthermore, the car has grown an entire class. The 1989 model was a "Subcompact", today's is a "Compact".

The 1989 model was equipped with a 1.6L base engine which was, as I recall, anemic at best. The A/C--if so equipped--was ice cold if you lived in International Falls, MN. In Houston, TX, might as well forget it.

Today's base Corolla is larger, heavier, and has a 1.8L engine that is much more powerful. While it has gained mass and volume, it improved on the MPG figures by several MPG, in addition to lowering emissions substantially. Furthermore, many (if not most) newer cars now make 2/3 throttle available in the first 1/3 pedal travel, while older cars were linear. This means higher performance off the line--but increased fuel use which factors into the MPG ratings.

Keep in mind that the Corolla now occupies a class that was occupied by the Camry. The Camry grew a full class during the 90s, and is now almost as large as the original Avalon introduced in 1995. The Avalon, by the way, is still a "large" car, but it has grown into a very large car, the engine has grown by .5L and a number of horsepower, yet the car still has the same MPG figures as the first generation Avalon introduced in the 90s.

Of course, MPG figures will vary greatly among different drivers, which is why it's important to use MPG figures from the EPA to compare different models or years. The Avalon, for example, lists 28MPG highway, although in my experience it is almost impossible NOT to get well over 30mpg driving 75-85mph. Here in Phoenix, using A/C 100% of the time, I have never seen my Avalon's MPG figures drop as low as the listed "all around" 23MPG, and I'm rarely passed by cars, typically I do most of the passing.

Going back to the original post which mentioned the Lexus 600 series, the Lexus LS600h hybrid does increase fuel economy from the so-called "base model" LS460. The 600h has a 5L V8 instead of the 4.6L in the "base" model, plus it adds 2MPG in all around economy figures. But in city driving, it adds 4MPG to the LS460's figure. Even though it does increase MPG figures slightly, it won't be much of a competitor for the high-mileage Prius. Except for those with an extra $85k, who will settle for nothing less than a car that figures out if a parking space is big enough for it to fit into, and then parks itself.

The bottom line is, the reason that Toyota's fleet MPG hasn't made strides is because Toyota (like other automakers) was pressed into building bigger, heavier, faster cars to suit consumer demand. But when I look at their economy model by model, comparing it to previous models, and factoring in leaps in size and performance, the picture is much different.
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Old 09-29-2008, 03:07 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
810 posts, read 3,576,951 times
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-Change in EPA measure of MPG
-Model Bloat (look more to the Yaris)
-Weight increase
-Performance requirements for the higher road speeds (remember the 55mph limit in the old days? Gotta get to higher freeway speeds in the same amount of merging room these days).
-Mandated feature increases (safety features from the gov't., creature comforts from the customer)

The 80's corolla would never be allowed to market with today's safety regulations alone, because the government has decided that the best policy for road safety is to mandate safety features in cars, as opposed to requiring safer driving techniques. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's the side effect that you get.
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Old 09-30-2008, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Southeast Georgia
65 posts, read 219,773 times
Reputation: 46
Lately, I would say fleet wide is because of one thing: Trucks.

Toyota added a midsize and fullsize truck and trucks are not required to meet the same fuel economy numbers as cars. These are vehicles toyota never had in it's fleet 20 or 30 years ago. They had a compact truck and that was it.

All the above being said, I'd still rather have a Chevy truck.
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Old 10-02-2008, 08:07 AM
 
Location: In The Outland
6,023 posts, read 11,868,216 times
Reputation: 3535
My last Chevy truck was the worst pile of junk I have ever owned. It was a 99 silverado. Bad Bad Bad. My Toyota, an 85, has gone 360,000 miles with very few repairs. I wouldn't ever have gotten that much use out of my Chevy as it was constantly in the shop for serious repairs. My extended warranty paid for itself about 5 times over. The Toyota is still my only vehicle and when it takes its final dirt nap I will buy another Toyota. By the way I am from a "G.M. only" family as my grandfather was a V.P. of G.M.
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Old 10-02-2008, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Wherabouts Unknown!
7,764 posts, read 16,835,798 times
Reputation: 9316
PNW-type-gal wrote:
Also, most consumers won't buy a car without whatever options are current, and most cars now have more safety equipment (air bags, crash pillars, special bumpers), heavier, nicer seats, electric adjustments, anti-locks brakes, sound deadening to make the cars quiet (so car doors close with a "thunk" instead of a "bing"), electronic lock systems etc etc.


Not true for me. I'd love to see a high quality car WITHOUT all the bells & whistles and all of the expensive computerized crap that makes cars so expensive to buy and maintain. I don't mind hand cranking the windows up and down. I loved the little triangular shaped windows in side doors of the older cars which allowed you to direct the breeze to your liking. I liked the vents that you could manually open and close to get some air on your feet and legs. I live in a place that gets over 70 days of 90+ heat, yet I use the airconditioing only 2 or 3 times a summer. I can easily live without all of the so-called upgrades and conveniences. They are actually more of a nuisance and unnecessary expenses.
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