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Old 12-11-2008, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
7,187 posts, read 7,349,373 times
Reputation: 4090

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IN my attempt to keep you all informed on some of the actual, in the field, real time aspects of Wind generation I'd like to share the latest developments from our newest site. Having decided that it is not economically wise to own anymore of our own wind towers we have purchased energy from a recently installed 100Mw site in Southern MN. Since the inception of cold weather a few weeks ago system demand has been so low at night that regional energy prices have been low as well. Unfortunantly the majority of wind energy is generated at night when there is not a demand for it. This has resulted in a 100.00$ per Mwh fee we have to pay for the wind towers to inject the unneed energy into the grid.......Once the hours are added up it's quite a hefty penelty for running renewable generation.........
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Old 12-11-2008, 09:27 AM
 
5,092 posts, read 9,166,087 times
Reputation: 3928
Sounds like this is more of billing problem than wind generation problem.

Do the local providers use any "time-of-use" metering?

Works sort like the billing many cell phones use -- daytime or premium time is full priced, deep night is discounted. Tends to shift heavy users into the night and away from the day, balancing out the load and supply.
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Old 12-11-2008, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
7,187 posts, read 7,349,373 times
Reputation: 4090
no it's a system supply and demand problem. The system operator (in this case MISO) sets prices for generation injection and withdrawal to and from the intergrated grid. Whenever LMP goes negitive you pay a penalty for injecting energy to the system.......

Midwest ISO - Market Information
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Old 12-11-2008, 12:28 PM
 
5,092 posts, read 9,166,087 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
no it's a system supply and demand problem.
Time-of-use metering is all about system level supply and demand.

It is done by location but balances the overall system, and could cure much of the problem you are describing.

Quote:

The system operator (in this case MISO) sets prices for generation injection and withdrawal to and from the intergrated grid. Whenever LMP goes negitive you pay a penalty for injecting energy to the system.......

Midwest ISO - Market Information
Everywhere -- at least as far as I know -- has the same problem you are describing -- whether there is Wind Power in the system or not. High daytime use, and low night-time use. The base-load generators (mostly Coal and Nukes) run all night whether there is any demand or not. Add an irregular night-time source like Wind and it makes it more so.

One area in your map there -- Ludington, Michigan -- has the condition so severe, they pump water up the dunes all night just to let it flow back through turbines during the day -- sort of a huge gravity based storage battery >>>

Ludington Pumped Storage Power Plant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here (Texas) we have that condition particularly bad because the high daytime use is not just a daily issue but a seasonal issue. Our Summer daytime Air Conditioning is so high that our Peak Load is about double the Base Load needed. Come the hot Summer afternoon and we have every hydro (yeah we actually do have some power dams, here), and Gas Peaker Unit screaming to the max. Spring and Fall -- especially night time -- goes so slack we shut Coal plants down for a month or more.

As far as time-of-use metering -- here are some In Real Life examples:

So far we are only doing the Time-of-use billing for very large industrial and commercial type customers. But it works very well. An example of a project with this is one I worked on some years ago -- JC Penney headquarters in Plano (North side of Dallas area). JC Penney moved from a 50 story office bldg in NYC to a three story that covered something like 70 acres, as I recall. Huge Air Conditioning Load.

By using time-of-use metering the new HQ was designed with a huge Ice Block water tank in the basement. Overnight -- when demand is low and power is cheap, they freeze the water. And then that Ice helps keep the building cool all the next day. They pay about 1/3 for that night time power, and use much less during the day. An individual use that helps balance the overall system -- a win for everyone.

sample story >>> Large ice storage system installed at J.C. Penney world headquarters. (heating, ventilation and air conditioning systems; Dallas, Texas) | Air Conditioning, Heating & Refrigeration News | Find Articles at BNET

Overall, our grid (ERCOT -- Electric Reliability Council of Texas) is presently installing something like 4000 node points to shift to system-wide time of use.

Ontario (Canada) is going to time-of-use metering -- this page covers the details, with real numbers, in an easy to read format >>>

Time-Of-Use Electrical Pricing and Billing

If your local area did time-of-use billing, even everyday-go-to-work people shift their use patterns. Baking a turkey? Do it overnight. Same with Clothes Dryer, Water Heaters, on and on and on.

You are already sort of experiencing Time-of-Use penalties in what you are describing -- that is what the penalties are coming from -- but once it hits the individual meters the use patterns can change, and you can make better use of the resources.
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Old 12-11-2008, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
7,187 posts, read 7,349,373 times
Reputation: 4090
We have the same seasonal loads issues as you describe.....A few of our member communitys are moving to off/on peak variable priceing mainly for industrial costumers but you really have to show/convince them of the savings potential. The problem with being a Municipal Utility is that it takes a vote of our members to adjust rates and we can't just pass along the increased fees we are seeing. If we could I think it would be easier to make people shift production to off peak hours.............We actually run 1 base load coal plant and a bunch of duel fuel CIICE peakers. We need the baseload during the day so we can't shut it off at night and running min load on a 1000Mw steam plant plays hell with equipment.........
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Old 12-11-2008, 05:10 PM
 
34,411 posts, read 34,532,379 times
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I've heard an interesting idea based on the electric cars, might be off topic but it's slightly related. Everyone that owns these cars will now have a portable energy storage unit and we can assume that most will be charging at night which will inevitably drive the energy costs up at night however where it gets interesting is that those that have charged overnight will be able to put the energy back into the grid during peak times and make a buck doing it if they are not going to use the car.

In any event if the nation does switch to electric cars in the future it will help solve one problem of storing wasted energy because the storage capacity will be greatly expanded.
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Old 12-12-2008, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
7,187 posts, read 7,349,373 times
Reputation: 4090
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
I've heard an interesting idea based on the electric cars, might be off topic but it's slightly related. Everyone that owns these cars will now have a portable energy storage unit and we can assume that most will be charging at night which will inevitably drive the energy costs up at night however where it gets interesting is that those that have charged overnight will be able to put the energy back into the grid during peak times and make a buck doing it if they are not going to use the car.

In any event if the nation does switch to electric cars in the future it will help solve one problem of storing wasted energy because the storage capacity will be greatly expanded.
A problem with your scenerio (also applys to wind farms) is that the type of energy sources you describe do not supply reactive power (vars) to the grid. I suppose you could run your house for awhile on your car batteries (if it was a DC circut) but you can't supply a intergreted distributation grid with out amperage. Wind towers,solar banks, batterys in general cannot support voltage over the national intergrated system we have here in the US. You have to have a machine that will react to voltage change with the input of more fuel resulting in the creation of AMPS. This is one reason wind devlopers have seen a huge increase in capitol cost. They must install very large Capicitor banks to try to help support system voltage.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Nebraska
4,053 posts, read 6,493,741 times
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When we have several million PLUG IN electric vehicles on the road the demand for electricity between night hours will increase to allow more consistent demands during a 24 hour time period.

GL2
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