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Old 03-17-2009, 02:11 PM
 
21,939 posts, read 15,767,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDolphin View Post
And in the long term, we can't eat money.
And on the other hand you won't eat without oil at the present, at least for the masses. It's used in the machinery that harvests your crops, it's used to oil and lubricate the machines at the factory. Then it's used to ship all that food to market...

Those things are easy to say but not very easy to put into practice. Joe Six pack has immediate needs of putting food on the table for his kids in the present, his concern is not about what effect that is going to have 20 or 30 years from now and rightfully so.
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Old 03-17-2009, 03:46 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,913 posts, read 4,887,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Those things are easy to say but not very easy to put into practice. Joe Six pack has immediate needs of putting food on the table for his kids in the present, his concern is not about what effect that is going to have 20 or 30 years from now and rightfully so.
That's why the government has to step in; Joe can't mange his life so his children will have a decent world in which to live.
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Old 03-17-2009, 03:59 PM
 
5,019 posts, read 8,863,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDolphin View Post
Thanks. I need some optimism right about now. Been reading too many books that lean more toward ecological pessimism.

Def. check out the book Latania mentioned on the first page (See Rob Hopkins Transition Towns). I'm reading this now. Makes me excited to be a human durning this time period. Realistic, yet optimistic.
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:39 PM
 
21,939 posts, read 15,767,559 times
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Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
That's why the government has to step in; Joe can't mange his life so his children will have a decent world in which to live.
Joe has trouble gettin a mortgage for house perhaps we should invent some big government backed company to step in to help him get a mortgage he can't afford. Oh wait, didn't someone already have that idea?

Joe can mange his life just fine, it's when the government goes sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong that it becomes a big mess. Let's make energy really expensive so he can't afford and has to take government handouts paid by me... brilliant idea.
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Old 03-17-2009, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Chicago, IL
9,000 posts, read 8,591,686 times
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I don't think oil will run out anytime soon BUT cheap oil is not in the future.
Once the economy rebounds and the demand goes higher, the price will go up.
I think we need to invest more in alternatives now, even though prices for oil are low. Global energy demand is slated to double and we need to be ready to afford it.

In the future I hope to live in a sustainable community that can weather peak oil.
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Old 03-17-2009, 05:38 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,913 posts, read 4,887,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Joe has trouble gettin a mortgage for house perhaps we should invent some big government backed company to step in to help him get a mortgage he can't afford. Oh wait, didn't someone already have that idea?

Joe can mange his life just fine, it's when the government goes sticking it's nose where it doesn't belong that it becomes a big mess. Let's make energy really expensive so he can't afford and has to take government handouts paid by me... brilliant idea.
Strawman. The expensive energy is the one that give your children asthma -- coal.
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Old 03-17-2009, 05:54 PM
 
21,939 posts, read 15,767,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
Strawman. The expensive energy is the one that give your children asthma -- coal.
LOL... you keep lobbing them and I'll keep smashing them out of the park. I'll let people with this affliction speak for themselves as no one in my family has it so I can't speak from experience.

Quote:
Best Choice for Asthma Sufferer - Coal Stokers: Boilers, Furnaces and Stoves

....I have struggled with asthma and lots of allergies my whole life. I literally respond to everything in the allergist test kit, molds, pollen, dust mites, pet dander...you name it. I take advair for asthma and other inhalers when needed.

I started burning coal last winter, and it was probably one of the easiest winters (in terms of asthma) that I've had......
Quote:
Allergies and Coal Dust/Ash - Coal Stokers: Boilers, Furnaces and Stoves

I have an ashmatic child with allergies to many things, she actually does better when the coal boiler is fired.
Next!
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Old 03-17-2009, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic east coast
3,830 posts, read 5,160,767 times
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Interesting how the native americans plan (at a minimum) for seven generations to come and we have some who look for their immediate profit and damn our kids and grand kids and those who come after to a world bled dry.

Ask the 'Joe Sixpacks" in West Virginia and Kentucky who have had their mountain tops leveled and tailings thrown into their pure rivers and streams (and wells) until they're polluted and poisoned how great the coal industry has treated the environment that had been their heritage for generations...ask the miners with black lung disease while you're at it...

Cree Prophecy

Only after the Last Tree has been cut down,
Only after the Last River has been poisoned,
Only after the Last Fish has been caught,
Only then will you find that
Money Cannot Be Eaten.

Last edited by LittleDolphin; 03-17-2009 at 07:23 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Charleston, WV
3,105 posts, read 4,620,563 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleDolphin View Post
Ask the 'Joe Sixpacks" in West Virginia and Kentucky who have had their mountain tops leveled and tailings thrown into their pure rivers and streams (and wells) until they're polluted and poisoned how great the coal industry has treated the environment that had been their heritage for generations...ask the miners with black lung disease while you're at it...
.
I invite you to come to WV and talk with Joe Sixpack to really get his opinion. You will be surprised by what you hear.

Come down and let me drive you around to the areas with surface mining. I'll dare you to try to walk up one of the untouched mountains - trust me, they are so steep you won't be able to do it.

Let me show you the reclaimed land and how it is now being used.

We don't hear many people in WV complaining about surface mining - we hear a lot of people from outside the state complaining about it.
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Old 03-17-2009, 08:03 PM
 
Location: London, U.K.
2,650 posts, read 1,767,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
That would be dictated by the market, science and markets have overcome problems in the past. As long as they are allowed to take their natural course then it won't be an issue. As oil becomes more expensive investors and companies will really be looking at other alternatives to provide to the market whether it's oil shales, renewables or whatever else might be on the horizon.

The alternatives must first be economical and be able to compete on the open market before you will see them emerge. For example you can produce fuel from coal and that technology goes back to WW2 however it's expensive to do it, I believe oil needs to be in the $40 to $50 dollar a barrel range before it's economical.
No, flow rates are primarily influenced by geology and net energy return. For oil shale, Steve Mutt, MD of Shell's shale oil program optimisticaly forcasts production of 5 mbpd by 2030- if all goes well. Considering oil shale and all unconventional sources of oil have EREOI (no offense but do you understand this?) figures of around 1- 1.5, they will do almost nothing in offsetting net energy decline. This firstly has to be made up elsewhere by ramping up production of existing fuels ie- gas and coal. Because of this there is simply no way to make up for the projected decline rates of crude oil in the timescales we have. I strongly suggest if you haven't read it already to study the Hirsch report:

http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications...aking_NETL.pdf
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