Windmills dismal performance (solar power, mercury, toxic, buy)

[Cosmic]

Wind is a super nice alternative but again I think it depends on the particular location / utility / situation.

One of the big problems can be spining reserve than has to be kept to back it up. The other is wind generation does not really fit all that well into either base load, swing load or peaking generation category. It is more than just trying to crank out a few MW. It probably is a messed up swing load generation in most systems but that also assumes the particular utility has enough spare capacity to handle the load when wind is not giving the required power. The inability to meet demand as needed can be a big drawback but the economics can be inciting. You do have to be able to match load demand to your generation capacities in some realible fashion.

That said, wind is a nice alternative method but I don't know if I would want it to be a significant large portion of my generation capacity if no method of storage was designed in to make it more functional in the real World. It probably fits better in areas where the wind is more predictable and available most days of the year. Even there might be some problems fitting it into the distribution systems. Also depends on if it will be reliable availability in the utility's peak demand seasons. It is more than just having some type of generation capacity, it all has to fit together in a particular scheme of things.

The better alternative for many areas should be the new generation of nuke plants that will be available. We should be about 5 years away from the first demo plant of the III generation designs. That is worth going after, generation in the 100's of MW chunks and it should be extremely reliable base load generation with maybe the ability to do hydrogen generation directly as part of the process to supply mobile needs in the switch from a carbon based energy source to a hydrogen based economy. A good future nuke is probably what will save us if anything will.

Again you don't want politicians too involved, they are horrible power engineers. Obama is talking a good talk, but he still does not apparently understand one of our main hopes for the future has to be nuclear. Wind and solar just ain't going to generate the load in big enough quantities and neither is a good enough base load generator without a lot of fancy engineering.

[thecoalman]

rlchurch why do you keep trying to divert the discussion away from wind?

Originally Posted by rlchurch

If you check with the EPA in their clear skies program, you'll find some data on the cost of the pollution that coal plants produce .

The numbers I quoted are from the EIA an arm of the Department of Energy. No link to that document this time? Still gun shy from the last time you posted it?

[vec101]

Originally Posted by rlchurch

Actually the wind projects in WV are exceeding planned generation. There isn't a problem.

If you are going to make such statement, you need to back it up with proof.

[vec101]

Originally Posted by Tek_Freek

So if I read this correctly, the Great Citizens of West Virginia elected a governor that espouses wind energy in a state that cannot viably sustain it, then they complain because he is pushing the project?

Uuuummmmm, Duh!

Manchin has been gov since 2004. He's a good guy and normally does a very good job. The wind "proclaimation" was a surprise to many of us. Of course, the issue is fashionable and being spearheaded by the gurus in the Fed govt.

[vec101]

Originally Posted by rlchurch

If you looked at your local utility's combustion turbines, you'd find they weren't operating most of the time either.

Before someone puts up a wind farm they spend a year or two collecting wind data for that specific site. That's factored into the financial projections developed for the sites. The vast majority of these projects are built by independent producers. If the turbine doesn't run they don't get paid. The performance of the projects in WV is pretty much spot-on to what the planning studies said to expect. The investors are making money and building more farms.

Links to proof please. No links do not add value to an arguement.

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by thecoalman

rlchurch why do you keep trying to divert the discussion away from wind?



The numbers I quoted are from the EIA an arm of the Department of Energy. No link to that document this time? Still gun shy from the last time you posted it?

Google EPA Clear Skies. EPA: Clear Skies -- Health and Environmental Benefits

Under Clear Skies, each year, by 2020, Americans would experience approximately:

• 14,100 fewer premature deaths;
  • An alternative estimate projects 8,400 fewer premature deaths.
• 8,800 fewer cases of chronic bronchitis;
• 30,000 fewer hospitalizations/emergency room visits for cardiovascular and respiratory symptoms; and
• 12.5 million fewer days with respiratory illnesses and symptoms, including work loss days, restricted activity days, and school days.

The monetized benefits of Clear Skies would total approximately $113 billion annually by 2020, substantially outweighing the annual costs of $6.3 billion.

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by vec101

If you are going to make such statement, you need to back it up with proof.

Actually I don't have to do anything of the kind. But I'd be please to help with your education.

You'll have to talk to the individual developers. The planning studies aren't public documents. I'll suggest however since existing plants are operating in the 25-30% Capacity factor range and there are more plants on the drawing board, investors aren't disappointed.

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by vec101

Links to proof please. No links do not add value to an arguement.

What to the capacity factors of CTs?

Here's the link

Electric Power Annual - Average Capacity Factors by Energy Source

[vec101]

Washington DC has recently deregulated electric to consumers - they have alternative companies from which to recieve their power.

May even lead one to believe they can choose to only get their electric from green resources such as from windmills.

There is just one problem.... the electric still comes from Pepco lines so the power is intermingled with electric from various sources.

The District of Columbia Public Service Commission has reformed the district's electric market to give customers a chance to save money on their electric bills through choosing an alternate electric supplier. Customers at Pepco can shop for a cheaper electric supply rate.

Customers who choose an alternate energy provider still have their power delivered to them by Pepco, and contact Pepco for all outage reporting. Customers can choose to receive either a single bill from Pepco for their delivery service and energy supply service, or can receive two bills, one from each company. http://www.saveonenergy.com/section-111-Washington%2c-D.C.

Electric competition also should help the environment because Retail Electric Providers must offer some energy from renewable energy sources. Deregulated Electricity

You receive the benefit of our buying power and experience when making your connection to energy savings through us. Even though we treat them all fairly, they know we are requiring their best price and solution. Energy Supplier, Cheap Electricity - Why SaveOnEnergy.com

SaveOnEnergy.com hand picks the electric and natural gas companies we recommend, which include only those that are pre-qualified and meet a rigorous criteria Texas Residential Energy Providers

Checking the criteria, it says nothing about "green" energy.

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by vec101

Washington DC has recently deregulated electric to consumers - they have alternative companies from which to recieve their power.

May even lead one to believe they can choose to only get their electric from green resources such as from windmills.

When I signed up I think there were three suppliers of green power, including PEPCO's unregulated energy subsidiary. I don't know how many there are today. Check PEPCO's web site. The key word is resource!

Originally Posted by vec101

There is just one problem.... the electric still comes from Pepco lines so the power is intermingled with electric from various sources.

Sorry I'm not going to go down this inane path with another nontechnical person. PJM says that it's fine.

Originally Posted by vec101

Checking the criteria, it says nothing about "green" energy.

Check PEPCO's web site.