Windmills dismal performance (environment, lawsuit, repair, better)

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by my54ford

The lights are starting to come on for some people here in Mn.... over 3.5 million dollars lost (and trhis only info from one small utility) in the first 4 months of this year due to wind power. The customers are starting to get the bill and boy are they mad!!!

Link?

[vec101]

Speaking of windmills - sure is awesome to have your very own network to push your agenda.
There's been a lot of talk about coal lobbyists, etc. but WOW, what a powerhouse behind the push for windmills, Cap & Trade, etc.

GE owns NBC, MSNBC, and CNBC.
GE is one of the world's leading wind turbine suppliers.
GE has invested and relied on their green products divison for profit - profits have been down, they do not expect to reach their target of $25 billion, but do expect things to improve due to the stimulus bill.
GE & employees were big supporters of Obama.
GE has invested a lot of money lobbying govt for the Cap and Trade.
The Washington Examiner reports that GE has a joint venture called Greenhouse Gas Services, which is to invest and trade in greenhouse gas credits generated by the Cap and Trade bill.

Which BTW, GE got a $139 billion bailout in November, there is talk that they may be needing more.

General Electric: The Worst Bailout in the World « FOX Forum « FOXNews.com
www.washingtonexaminer.com >> Politics - Obama’s hidden bailout of General Electric
GE Energy - Wind Energy at GE
GE, AmEx, GM--Bailout USA - Forbes.com
More info at:
GE, AmEx, GM--Bailout USA - Forbes.com
The Three Ways GE Can Survive (GE)
. GE’s Ecomagination: Green is Universal : cassiewalker - Green Options
G.E.’s Green Chief: Bullish on Clean-Tech Future - Green Inc. Blog - NYTimes.com
G.E.’s Green Chief: Bullish on Clean-Tech Future - Green Inc. Blog - NYTimes.com
GE and NBC News
http://www.ge.com/files/usa/company/...urns_green.pdf
http://www.sustainablelifemedia.com/...d_trade_system
http://www.businessinsider.com/obama...t-to-ge-2009-3

[GregW]

Back to basics: Wind and water power collect and convert “natural” energy and not reliable power. Large on line electrical energy storage is required to make the system provide reliable power when the primary energy source is "natural" like wind and water. Energy storage (pumped hydro, water ponding at conventional hydro) is also required to time shift the output from large nuclear or coal fired steam electric plants operating at constant output levels. Commonly the electrical load for a region is highest during the day and about 50% to 70% less at night.

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by GregW

Back to basics: Wind and water power collect and convert “natural” energy and not reliable power. Large on line electrical energy storage is required to make the system provide reliable power when the primary energy source is "natural" like wind and water. Energy storage (pumped hydro, water

ponding

at conventional hydro) is also required to time shift the output from large nuclear or coal fired steam electric plants operating at constant output levels. Commonly the electrical load for a region is highest during the day and about 50% to 70% less at night.

Storage is a great benefit, but less is required than the critics would have you believe. There is a mathematical principle called the Law of Large Numbers. As the number and geographic scope of wind, solar, and other variable resources increase the dependable capacity approaches the average value of their output. Some recent research shows that 150 miles between wind turbine reduces the correlation of their output by 50%. If you add in solar and other renewable resource, where the outputs are not correlated with that of wind and the variability of the resource is dampened considerable.

Just remember that the wind might not blow all the time where you are, but it blows all the time somewhere. A robust transmission system solves this and many other problems. An increase in storage will also add some value.

[GregW]

rlchurch - Very good point. Thank you, GregW

I was thinking about hydroelectric systems where a regional drought can reduce the entire system output. Hydro systems backed by alpine snow melt can provide reliable power for a considerable portion of the year.

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by GregW

rlchurch - Very good point. Thank you, GregW

I was thinking about hydroelectric systems where a regional drought can reduce the entire system output. Hydro systems backed by alpine snow melt can provide reliable power for a considerable portion of the year.

Yes but no hydro system can operate at 100% capacity factor either. Wind and hydro complement each other very well. Wind is energy long and capacity short and hydro is the opposite.

[GregW]

Would you explain "Capacity Factor" for our audiance? Thanks

[my54ford]

Originally Posted by GregW

Would you explain "Capacity Factor" for our audiance? Thanks

That's easy Capacity Factor is the ratio of actual output compared to name plate rateing....
So if a 100 MW rated wind farm generates 400,000 MW in a years time it only has a capacity factor of @50%
or a dirt burner with a rated capacity of 1,000 MW might produce 648,000 megawatt-hours in a 30-day month. The number of megawatt-hours that would have been produced had the plant been operating at full capacity can be determined by multiplying the plant's maximum capacity by the number of hours in the time period. 1,000 MW X 30 days X 24 hours/day is 720,000 megawatt-hours. The capacity factor is determined by dividing the actual output with the maximum possible output. In this case, the capacity factor is 0.9 (90%).

[my54ford]

Originally Posted by rlchurch

Link?

Pretty simple math.... When have you have a PPA for 65 dollars per MWH and the market is 15.00 your going to lose money

[rlchurch]

Originally Posted by my54ford

Pretty simple math.... When have you have a PPA for 65 dollars per MWH and the market is 15.00 your going to lose money

Moderator cut: No flaming You charge your members $15.00/MWH last month for their power?