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Old 05-12-2009, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,255,506 times
Reputation: 948

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Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
They do when they have to pull power from areas with a surplus to meet demand.

Then its anybody's guess.
PJM has sufficient capacity that it has certified and is within PJM to meet its peak demand. A very superficial review of the operation of PJM would have revealed that. PJM doesn't "pull power from areas with a surplus" they maintainsufficient capacity within PJM to meet their load. They may on occasion buy economy energy from outside their system, but they maintain their capacity within it.
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,622 posts, read 8,526,373 times
Reputation: 5176
Some of you seem to be under the impression that electrons move through the grid like water through a pipe.


HMMMM
Many educators like to use the water to electricity comparison. Just two forms of energy that have to be harnessed and channeled
HowStuffWorks "Voltage, Current and Resistance"

­One simple way to think about a generator is to imagine it acting like a pump pushing water through a pipe. Only instead of pushing water, a generator uses a magnet to push electrons along. This is a slight oversimplification, but it paints a helpful picture of the properties at work in a generator. A water pump moves a certain number of water molecules and applies a certain amount of pressure to them. In the same way, the magnet in a generator pushes a certain number of electrons along and applies a certain amount of "pressure" to the electrons.

Now let's add one more factor to current and voltage: resistance, which is measured in ohms. We can extend the water analogy to understand resistance, too. The voltage is equivalent to the water pressure, the current is equivalent to the flow rate and the resistance is like the pipe size.
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:47 PM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,622 posts, read 8,526,373 times
Reputation: 5176
HowStuffWorks "How Power Grids Work"

This link provides a good explanation for how the power grid works... Perhaps some folks need a review......
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Old 05-12-2009, 07:20 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,255,506 times
Reputation: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Some of you seem to be under the impression that electrons move through the grid like water through a pipe.


HMMMM
Many educators like to use the water to electricity comparison. Just two forms of energy that have to be harnessed and channeled
HowStuffWorks "Voltage, Current and Resistance"

*One simple way to think about a generator is to imagine it acting like a pump pushing water through a pipe. Only instead of pushing water, a generator uses a magnet to push electrons along. This is a slight oversimplification, but it paints a helpful picture of the properties at work in a generator. A water pump moves a certain number of water molecules and applies a certain amount of pressure to them. In the same way, the magnet in a generator pushes a certain number of electrons along and applies a certain amount of "pressure" to the electrons.

Now let's add one more factor to current and voltage: resistance, which is measured in ohms. We can extend the water analogy to understand resistance, too. The voltage is equivalent to the water pressure, the current is equivalent to the flow rate and the resistance is like the pipe size.
Simplistic analogies Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks

Last edited by vec101; 05-14-2009 at 02:33 PM..
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Old 05-13-2009, 05:35 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,492 posts, read 51,361,282 times
Reputation: 24613
Methinks 54ford has not noticed the grid carries Alternating Current electricity (thanks to Tesla) which operates by different rules than Direct Current.

rlc - I suggest not trying to explain electrical engineering to these people.
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Old 05-13-2009, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,622 posts, read 8,526,373 times
Reputation: 5176
^^^^^^^^^^
Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks I have proved more then once what I do for a living Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks

Last edited by vec101; 05-14-2009 at 02:34 PM..
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Old 05-13-2009, 07:58 AM
 
39,451 posts, read 40,762,330 times
Reputation: 16258
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
rlc - I suggest not trying to explain electrical engineering to these people.
No need trying to explain as the premise is bogus. Here's a simple analogy to understand. We're selling shoes but they are made overseas. We have a few customers that want a product made in the U.S.

Instead of making some shoes in the U.S. we're going to put some laces made in the U.S. on them which will make up 1% of the shoe. When we go to sell them instead of claiming the laces are made in the U.S. on all the shoes we're going to say 1 pair of shoes in a hundred is made in the U.S. and charge extra for those pair of shoes so the person buying them can feel comfortable that they purchased a U.S. product.

Since the extra cost of the shoe cannot reasonably be made up by the person who wants them we're also going to tack on some extra expense for the other shoes but still leave them 100% made overseas.

Fool yourself if you wish but I'm sorry to tell you but what you have is pair of shoes made overseas.
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:54 AM
 
23,936 posts, read 11,912,132 times
Reputation: 10122
My Way News - House Dems scale back plans to curb global warming

The link shows cap-and-trade may not even make it out of committee.

All you greenies.................well, you will probably lose.
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Midwest
4,257 posts, read 7,143,279 times
Reputation: 7149
It's Cap and TAX. Cap capitalism and TAX everyone.

Another fraud perpetrated by the GW Bernie Madoffs/Timmy Geitners of the world.

Just say no.
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:58 AM
 
11,256 posts, read 43,377,376 times
Reputation: 14922
Us simple minded folks out here in the hinterlands, as servants to the enlightened intellectuals of such fabulous communities as Washington D.C. ... are able to understand the concept that nobody can deliver to an end user a commodity if it isn't actually produced to begin with.

It doesn't matter if it's a basic food, a manufactured good, or electrical energy. So, just because you've got wires going into your power panel to deliver electricity into your home doesn't mean that there's power there any more than having checks in your checkbook means you've got money on deposit to cover the checks you write.

In my very simple minded questioning of how PJM obtains electricity that it puts into the grid for T&D to it's customers, I went directly to their website pjm.com. It's a nicely written and informative site, which I would like to believe that even the most intelligent posters on this forum can understand if they'd take the time to read it.

What you'll find posted there is a chart showing all of PJM's renewable energy sources, which include solar, wind, hydro, pumped storage water, methane, wood waste, solid waste, and other gases. Revealed there is the total cumulative amount of MWH's from 2002-2008 that PJM has obtained. Of passing interest to this thread is that total solar and wind and hydro are dwarfed by the power generation derived from Wood Waste alone, and then there's another giant, solid waste.

Last time I checked, Wood waste, solid waste, methane, and other captured gases require the act of combustion to generate heat to create steam to drive turbines to generate electricity. This process produces the dreaded greenhouse gases but also the benefit of electricity to power homes in 13 states and D.C..

Of further interest on their site, one may glean that PJM forecasts a daily summertime max load of 134.4 MWH this year while their system wide capacity for generation can produce 162 MWH. But the total in their system generated by "renewable energy" sources ... per their disclosure ... is but a fraction of that amount, and more specifically ... the amount generated by "green" sources is but a minute fraction of that total.

So much for only purchasing "green" energy from PJM. You can get this information from the horses' mouth instead of the other end at D.C. where all they see is the lights come on when they flip the switch.
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