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Old 05-14-2009, 03:34 PM
 
7,451 posts, read 2,503,055 times
Reputation: 2088
Quote:
Originally Posted by vec101 View Post
Hmmm, good point.
Hillbillies know how to farm and have the land to do it, can hunt, cut firewood, etc. - as ole Hank Jr. says "A country boy can survive".
That was too easy!
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:42 PM
 
8,181 posts, read 21,410,717 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
I have to tell you, I'm not losing any sleep over the farmers of this country going on a production strike. If the cost of a clean environment is more expensive food, then we will all step up and pay it. If we eat less and lose a little weight, it will be a double benefit.
Your are apparently chosing to ignore the ripple effect on the food chain already demonstrated in play from the government mandated ethanol production. Ethanol production is also mandated to increase substantially in the near term.

With the new demand upon corn, the price rose dramatically ... affecting feedstocks for livestock, corn oil and corn syrup (used in many baked goods, soft drinks, and numerous other prepared foods), and other food products using corn as an igredient.

The result was to take a lot of land in other crops out of production.

Final result was signficant increases in the cost of food around the world.

Coupled with increases in the cost of production of rice, another staple product, there's been near food riots already in the world's population. There's already been dire predictions of civil and financial distress over this issue, with smaller/more expensive basic food supplies.

Now, add in the burden of cap and trade to all of our food production, and you've sown the seeds of a major disaster from several standpoints.

Laugh now, rlchurch ... but when the crunch hits, there will be a lot of farmers unable to pay the costs of production, which means they're out of business. The remaining farmers will not be able to sustain production levels to satisfy the marketplace. I believe you will see civil unrest in the cities as a result ... and not just in the USA, but worldwide. The problem will extend far beyond the simple perspective of "we'll pay the price". Many folks cannot, and when the food supplies tighten up ... dieting isn't going to be the answer to rationed or unavailable food.

Can't sell it if it isn't produced to begin with. We've already seen the results of some governments mandating that farmers sell their crops for less than the cost of production down in South America. The production levels are falling rapidly, and food supplies are tightening up dramatically. Uncle Sugar is shipping a lot of food out of the country now, but that won't be enough to make up the shortfall.

I've already been contacted by an India based food importer, looking for durum wheat in incredible quanitites for their importation from the USA. As I'm in a HRWW area, I can't help them out. And the quantity they want is simply not available at any price in the USA, nor from Canada, at this time.

What I'm trying to explain to your smugness is that the food production system is already in crisis with looming shortages NOW. Stress the producers further and you'll see more than a crisis result. And that stress right now is bearing the name of cap and trade.
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:33 PM
 
22,203 posts, read 16,285,001 times
Reputation: 7205
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
Excess C02 will kill you. All things in moderation.
You said that numerous times and I've seen it mentioned by others trying to push this agenda so lets examine some numbers behind that statement. Much like your statements about radiation, mercury and just about everything else you post it's pretty much another pointless argument that is intended to intimidate people instead of having any real truth behind it in the context of what we are discussing. This is what the EPA has this to say about large concentrations of CO2:

Quote:
Carbon Dioxide as a Fire Suppressant: Examining the Risks | Alternatives / SNAP | US EPA

The health effects associated with exposure to carbon dioxide are paradoxical. At the minimum design concentration (34 percent) for its use as a total flooding fire suppressant, carbon dioxide is lethal. But because carbon dioxide is a physiologically active gas and is a normal component of blood gases at low concentrations, its effects at lower concentrations (under 4 percent) may be beneficial under certain exposure conditions. ( Appendix B discusses the lethal effects of carbon dioxide at high exposure levels (Part I) and the potentially beneficial effects of carbon dioxide at low exposure concentrations, as well as the use of added carbon dioxide in specialized flooding systems using inert gases (Part II))

At concentrations greater than 17 percent, such as those encountered during carbon dioxide fire suppressant use, loss of controlled and purposeful activity, unconsciousness, convulsions, coma, and death occur within 1 minute of initial inhalation of carbon dioxide (OSHA 1989, CCOHS 1990, Dalgaard et al. 1972, CATAMA 1953, Lambertsen 1971). At exposures between 10 and 15 percent, carbon dioxide has been shown to cause unconsciousness, drowsiness, severe muscle twitching, and dizziness within several minutes (Wong 1992, CATAMA 1953, Sechzer et al. 1960). Within a few minutes to an hour after exposure to concentrations between 7 and 10 percent, unconsciousness, dizziness, headache, visual and hearing dysfunction, mental depression, shortness of breath, and sweating have been observed (Schulte 1964, CATAMA 1953, Dripps and Comroe 1947, Wong 1992, Sechzer et al. 1960, OSHA 1989). Exposures to 4 to 7 percent carbon dioxide can result in headache; hearing and visual disturbances; increased blood pressure; dyspnea, or difficulty breathing; mental depression; and tremors (Schulte 1964; Consolazio et al. 1947; White et al. 1952; Wong 1992; Kety and Schmidt 1948; Gellhorn 1936; Gellhorn and Spiesman 1934, 1935; Schulte 1964). Part I of Appendix B discusses human health effects of high-concentration exposure to carbon dioxide in greater detail.
So for arguments sake lets say anything over 4% becomes detrimental.

Here's the concentration in percent of CO2 as measured over the last 50 years from :




The little blip is where it went it went over the threshold .02% to .03% For arguments sake lets say we increase the amount .01% every 50 years from now on. In 4850 years we would be able to achieve 1% at the current rate. It would take 19400 years to achieve 4%.

Now we can see how ludicrous your statement is as it pertains to this subject. Just another propagandist statement intended to instill fear in those who don't want to look up the numbers. I don't know the specifics but I'd venture to guess there isn't enough fossil fuels on the planet to put it up above .1% let alone achieve anything that would directly cause harm. Thank you again for providing me some great material. Keep them coming as I'm working on an article for my own site Moderator cut: No insults

Last edited by vec101; 05-15-2009 at 07:13 AM..
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:15 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
33,429 posts, read 28,032,504 times
Reputation: 15353
Moderator cut: No insults

Last edited by vec101; 05-15-2009 at 07:13 AM..
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Old 05-15-2009, 07:22 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,913 posts, read 4,942,719 times
Reputation: 916
Quote:
Originally Posted by vec101 View Post
Hmmm, good point.
Hillbillies know how to farm and have the land to do it, can hunt, cut firewood, etc. - as ole Hank Jr. says "A country boy can survive".
Third world existence is so wonderful. I'll just continue to shop at the Safeway. It will always have reasonably priced food. Chicken Little was wrong.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:59 PM
 
8,181 posts, read 21,410,717 times
Reputation: 7807
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
Yeah you're right I'm laughing. Moderator cut: No insults
No way.

I'm the guy that recognizes that a combination of misguided political, environmental, and social forces can line up in such a way as to make certain markets non-viable.

So my response is to hope for the best, but prepare for the worst and take responsibility for my happiness and survival, and that of my family.

When the rlchurch's of the world ... who think food is in abundance because it's on the shelves of the local supermarket today ... don't have food in reasonable supply, quality, and price ... us "hillbillies" will remember how our society got to that point.

Normally, I'd be among the first to lend a helping hand with whatever assist I could provide. But for mocking deniers like you, I'll make an exception. You can starve for all I care. Your "30 years a professional EE" and "MBA" and off the charts intelligence won't be worth sh*t when it comes to buying scarce supply products.

I'd again point you in the direction of the food crisis that already hit in Mexico recently when the price of corn skyrocketed. Even at Sam's club, rice has gone up 200-240% in the last year. The crisis is here already.

Add another $650 billion stress to the cost of energy which is used for production, and it's going to get worse, very soon.

Last edited by vec101; 05-17-2009 at 09:01 PM..
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:50 PM
 
Location: In the heights
11,185 posts, read 9,618,874 times
Reputation: 4784
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
You tell 'em about that sky that's falling.
That is a pretty disappointing rebuttal.
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Old 05-15-2009, 11:54 PM
 
22,203 posts, read 16,285,001 times
Reputation: 7205
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
That is a pretty disappointing rebuttal.
rlchurchc has no rebuttal for most arguments so he either ignores them or doesn't respond. for those that he has responded too he 's learned his lesson with with me many times.
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Old 05-16-2009, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,913 posts, read 4,942,719 times
Reputation: 916
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler View Post
That is a pretty disappointing rebuttal.
What response is appropriate for an emotional diatribe that predicts dire things will happen due to some government policy, yet provides not one shred of data that the policy will produce anything but beneficial results. Let go back 50 - 100 years and this same poster would be decrying the development of antibiotics, pasteurization of milk, fluoridation of water, commercial air travel etc. What would you cal this other than a hysterical irrational cry of doom, which was exactly the lesson of the "Chicken Little" story.

Does the long form of the critique help you to understand?
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Old 05-16-2009, 11:13 AM
 
8,181 posts, read 21,410,717 times
Reputation: 7807
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
What response is appropriate for an emotional diatribe that predicts dire things will happen due to some government policy, yet provides not one shred of data that the policy will produce anything but beneficial results. Let go back 50 - 100 years and this same poster would be decrying the development of antibiotics, pasteurization of milk, fluoridation of water, commercial air travel etc. What would you cal this other than a hysterical irrational cry of doom, which was exactly the lesson of the "Chicken Little" story.

Does the long form of the critique help you to understand?
Strawman false argument, rlchurch. It certainly helps to expose your avoidance of the topic at hand.

Nobody claimed the "end is near" on religious grounds.

Nobody here decried the development of antibiotics, pasteurization of milk, flouridation of water, commercial air travel, etc. .. as you would allege is a hysterical irrational cry of doom

What was cited was actual shrinking supply of needed consumer goods; ie, food production, and substantial increases in the costs of production and retail prices to consumers.

It's a fact that near food riots have happened in several countries due to the substantial increases in the cost of corn and rice.

It's a fact that if the Gov't encourages more corn production to meet a mandated ethanol supply, that other crops will be taken out of production in favor of the more valuable corn which will not be going into the food supply.

It's a fact that domestic soybeans have been taken out of production to favor corn, which has already adversely affected the soy oil availability for food as well as bio-diesel production.

It's a fact that if the Gov't places an additonal taxation burden upon the costs of energy, specifically electricity ... that the production, processing, storage, transportation, and distribution and retail sales costs will go up dramatically to the consumer. Placing that additional burden upon the energy costs will not increase production of needed goods, but stifle them.

And it's a fact that Safeway is not a producer of food stuffs, but a distributor and retailer of them. Food doesn't originate on the shelves of a Safeway store. That's a FACT, rlchurch ... which apparently your superior mind is unable to grasp.

Since it's readily apparent that you'd consider the "hillbilly" lifestyle to be well beneath your dignity (if not your abilities ...), I know you're not going to be raising food when the shortages become more apparent than they already are. I hope you're looking forward to your new "diet". I know what your degrees will be worth when the time comes, and how helpful your attitude will be to getting food.

Last edited by sunsprit; 05-16-2009 at 11:34 AM..
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