City-Data Forum Dem Congressman: ‘Nobody in This Country Realizes That Cap-and-Trade is a Tax’ (natural, energy)
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05-11-2009, 02:47 AM
 39,481 posts, read 40,796,345 times Reputation: 16304

Quote:
 Originally Posted by rlchurch Those thousand will reverse soon. Coal's going to pay the price.
Cap and trade will add some costs to the product but anthracite would have to go up about 340% before it would approach the current rate of electricity in most areas. If you take my example above where someone is paying \$60 per ton for bit coal it would cost them \$3 per million BTU after efficiency is calculated in. If they were using electric at \$0.10/kwh it's \$30 or 10X more.

Simple economics rlchurch, bituminous coal itself would need to be taxed at 1000% if someone was using it themselves before coal would become uneconomical and that's assuming the rate of electricity will stay the same which it will not.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls

Last edited by thecoalman; 05-11-2009 at 03:03 AM..

05-11-2009, 05:34 AM
 Location: Washington DC 5,915 posts, read 7,257,724 times Reputation: 948
Quote:
 Originally Posted by thecoalman Cap and trade will add some costs to the product but anthracite would have to go up about 340% before it would approach the current rate of electricity in most areas. If you take my example above where someone is paying \$60 per ton for bit coal it would cost them \$3 per million BTU after efficiency is calculated in. If they were using electric at \$0.10/kwh it's \$30 or 10X more. Simple economics rlchurch, bituminous coal itself would need to be taxed at 1000% if someone was using it themselves before coal would become uneconomical and that's assuming the rate of electricity will stay the same which it will not. http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls
I've got an insight for you coalman. Nobody at the federal level and very few at the state level care what you do with anthracite. It's too small an issue to bother with. So stoke up those stoves in Appalachia and have a nice warm winter. We will implement cap and trade IMO, but as planned it will only affect large users.

05-11-2009, 06:06 AM
 Location: Charleston, WV 3,105 posts, read 6,638,543 times Reputation: 835
Russians have been buying coal companies in the US to fire their plants (steel/ore/etc) in Russia/ South Africa/etc. One Russian company just paid over \$800 million (cash and stock) for a coal company in WV (coking coal for the company's steel mills overseas.)

Yep, let's make products etc more expensive to produce in the US. Russia and China are probably jumping for joy.

05-11-2009, 07:13 AM
 39,481 posts, read 40,796,345 times Reputation: 16304
Quote:
 Originally Posted by rlchurch We will implement cap and trade IMO, but as planned it will only affect large users.
As usual you have completely missed the point. This isn't about large users, if electic goes through the roof people will seek out other sources of energy. It's inevitable, the demand will shift from electric to other sources like coal, wood or whatever it may be. That is why I specifically provided a bituminous coal stoker example. That unit is in Wyoming right now. How many people do you think would be interested in purchasing one of those right now? Do you think some people would take notice to providing heat to their home for \$600 a year? They can save thousands right now.

I don't know if you understand the design but other than providing a hopper for the coal and taking ashes out it's no different than a regular boiler. Overall it requires a few minutes per day on the coldest days, it can go a week during warmer weather so the inconvenience factor is almost non-existent.

Getting back to my point as energy needs rise so will the demand for cheaper sources, if someones electric bill doubles because they are using it for heat they are going to be looking for other alternatives. Topping the list for an affordable alternative will be coal and with a unit like that how hard could the choice be?

I have some insight for you, electric, oil and NG which is the primary way most people heat their homes has been realtively cheap over the last 2 decades. People are seeking alternatives now, that demand will only increase as energy becomes more expensive.

05-11-2009, 07:37 AM
 Location: Washington DC 5,915 posts, read 7,257,724 times Reputation: 948
Quote:
 Originally Posted by thecoalman As usual you have completely missed the point. This isn't about large users, if electic goes through the roof people will seek out other sources of energy. It's inevitable, the demand will shift from electric to other sources like coal, wood or whatever it may be. That is why I specifically provided a bituminous coal stoker example. That unit is in Wyoming right now. How many people do you think would be interested in purchasing one of those right now? Do you think some people would take notice to providing heat to their home for \$600 a year? They can save thousands right now. I don't know if you understand the design but other than providing a hopper for the coal and taking ashes out it's no different than a regular boiler. Overall it requires a few minutes per day on the coldest days, it can go a week during warmer weather so the inconvenience factor is almost non-existent. Getting back to my point as energy needs rise so will the demand for cheaper sources, if someones electric bill doubles because they are using it for heat they are going to be looking for other alternatives. Topping the list for an affordable alternative will be coal and with a unit like that how hard could the choice be? I have some insight for you, electric, oil and NG which is the primary way most people heat their homes has been realtively cheap over the last 2 decades. People are seeking alternatives now, that demand will only increase as energy becomes more expensive.
Residential coal use is inconsequential and will remain so.

05-11-2009, 08:19 AM
 39,481 posts, read 40,796,345 times Reputation: 16304
Yea you're right, when someone's electric bill doubles they'll just "suck it up".

05-11-2009, 02:37 PM
 24,026 posts, read 11,935,291 times Reputation: 10209
Quote:
 Originally Posted by thecoalman Yea you're right, when someone's electric bill doubles they'll just "suck it up".
I don't think he knows what he is talking about. He is so sure his electric bill won't go up because he "knows" how his electricity is generated.

Newsflash, the wind doesn't blow 24/7. So when your windmill isn't turning, where is your power coming from?

Point is, you really never know, especially when the power companies buy electricity on the spot market from wherever there is extra power during high use.

05-11-2009, 04:44 PM
 Location: Washington DC 5,915 posts, read 7,257,724 times Reputation: 948
Quote:
 Originally Posted by thecoalman Yea you're right, when someone's electric bill doubles they'll just "suck it up".
It won't double and people will just suck it up and keep consuming. Hopefully they will now turn off the lights when they leave the room.

05-11-2009, 04:46 PM
 Location: Washington DC 5,915 posts, read 7,257,724 times Reputation: 948
Quote:
 Originally Posted by T-310 I don't think he knows what he is talking about. He is so sure his electric bill won't go up because he "knows" how his electricity is generated. Newsflash, the wind doesn't blow 24/7. So when your windmill isn't turning, where is your power coming from?
Natural gas by and large. Which is then paid back with excess wind generation later.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by T-310 Point is, you really never know, especially when the power companies buy electricity on the spot market from wherever there is extra power during high use.
You don't, professionals in the business do.

05-11-2009, 05:11 PM
 24,026 posts, read 11,935,291 times Reputation: 10209
Quote:
 Originally Posted by rlchurch Natural gas by and large. Which is then paid back with excess wind generation later. You don't, professionals in the business do.
So you know for certain where your power is coming from.

Even those in the business don't know minute to minute where the power is coming from.

Sorry, I call BS alert on that.

PEPCo and VEPCO get their power where and when they can from whatever sources to keep their customers satisfied.
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