U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Green Living
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 05-11-2009, 05:27 PM
 
11,256 posts, read 43,368,175 times
Reputation: 14917

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
PEPCo and VEPCO get their power where and when they can from whatever sources to keep their customers satisfied.
As does PJM, which uses wind in VA and IL to feed into the grid back to DC, along with some solar and methane powered plants for their hourly demand rate energy pricing. All backed up with Natural Gas powered plants for the base load.

Given that all the energy is delivered into the grid from it's source, it's then impossible to say that the KWH's of power used by any one consumer is exclusively derived from a single given green source, as one poster here asserts with 30 years of professional EE registration and an MBA, which they've deigned to inform of us their superior intellect and credentials. I'm eagerly awaiting their notice that they graduated valedictorian in their class and summa. Maybe even a member of the MENSA 10% club, too. Us common folk simply cannot argue with all the pontifications from such an accomplished intellect with proof positive that all the rest of us know nothing.

But common sense will tell you that unless you are receiving your power exclusively from a "green" source and not connected to the grid, you are receiving power that has been generated in multiple ways and delivered into the grid for T&D.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-11-2009, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,107 posts, read 35,190,408 times
Reputation: 4899
You people in the east have a very complicated system.

Here, power to the most populated areas comes from either Nuclear or Hydro.

There is a new solar project being built for the future. Wind farms here are not happening.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,254,882 times
Reputation: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
So you know for certain where your power is coming from.

Even those in the business don't know minute to minute where the power is coming from.

Sorry, I call BS alert on that.

PEPCo and VEPCO get their power where and when they can from whatever sources to keep their customers satisfied.
Thank you, PEPCO and Dominion Resources will be very surprised to hear this. PJM will be absolutely astonished. Here they thought that on a minute to minute basis they knew exactly where the power was coming from.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,254,882 times
Reputation: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunsprit View Post
As does PJM, which uses wind in VA and IL to feed into the grid back to DC, along with some solar and methane powered plants for their hourly demand rate energy pricing. All backed up with Natural Gas powered plants for the base load.

Given that all the energy is delivered into the grid from it's source, it's then impossible to say that the KWH's of power used by any one consumer is exclusively derived from a single given green source, as one poster here asserts with 30 years of professional EE registration and an MBA, which they've deigned to inform of us their superior intellect and credentials. I'm eagerly awaiting their notice that they graduated valedictorian in their class and summa. Maybe even a member of the MENSA 10% club, too. Us common folk simply cannot argue with all the pontifications from such an accomplished intellect with proof positive that all the rest of us know nothing.

But common sense will tell you that unless you are receiving your power exclusively from a "green" source and not connected to the grid, you are receiving power that has been generated in multiple ways and delivered into the grid for T&D.
I do understand that some of these concepts are difficult, Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks

Last edited by vec101; 05-14-2009 at 02:31 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 07:10 PM
 
23,925 posts, read 11,907,496 times
Reputation: 10117
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
I do understand that some of these concepts are difficult, Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks
Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks

I mean, the grid is interconnected getting power from all sources. You can make the claim that every kilowatt is coming from one source but peak demand is peak demand and they will pull power from all sources possible.

Last edited by vec101; 05-14-2009 at 02:31 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 07:43 PM
 
11,256 posts, read 43,368,175 times
Reputation: 14917
Yes, and PJM's website asserts that up to 70% of their delivered power may come from natural gas powered plants. They do not ... and apparently, cannot ... meet all of their contracted demand with wind/solar/methane. With electrical energy being a fungible commodity in the grid, it's an accouting process at any given moment to assert that "x" number of KW's are being fed into the grid as a portion of the delivered power. That's what PJM does ... minute by minute, and they adjust their KWH billing rate every hour. Why? Because it reflects the fact that the energy they're delivering to their customers comes from different sources on a continuously variable generating system and load.

Of further interest is the announcement today that Cheyenne (that's in Wyoming) has been awarded the High Plains Gasification-Advanced Technology Center. The project will be run jointly by the University of Wyoming and GE Energy. Build-out is expected to cost $100 mil over the next 2-3 years, employing approx 300 workers ... good news for Cheyenne's economy. Operating crew will be around 15 full-time employees on site.

BTW ... IF Campbell County in Wyoming was a country, it would be the world's third largest exporter of coal. That coal is some of the cleanest low sulfur coal with the highest BTU's/lb energy density in the business.

The coal industry in Wyoming is but one of the extractive industries that pays substantial severance taxes to the state which have been a source of revenue and a large investment fund for the future when the coal runs out. Since Wyoming is on a strict pay-as-you-go state balanced budget, this cash flow and investment fund is critical to the state's survival and low personal tax rates. The wind and solar farms do not pay such taxes, so a loss of coal production here would be a serious blow to the economy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 08:37 PM
 
39,450 posts, read 40,753,065 times
Reputation: 16253
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
I mean, the grid is interconnected getting power from all sources. You can make the claim that every kilowatt is coming from one source but peak demand is peak demand and they will pull power from all sources possible.
He makes that claim because he pays extra to say it. Same thing Al Gore does. That option would not be available to him without fossil fuel generation nor would it be remotely as cheap as he's paying without the massive subsidies wind gets. For that matter we can all claim the same thing since we are paying for the subsidies. About $0.24/Mwh in 2007. Nearly 30% of the average retail price in 2007.

So you are correct, it's BS.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2009, 09:20 AM
 
39,450 posts, read 40,753,065 times
Reputation: 16253
Wrong number I quoted above, its $23.37/MWh
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2009, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,254,882 times
Reputation: 948
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks
I mean, the grid is interconnected getting power from all sources. You can make the claim that every kilowatt is coming from one source but peak demand is peak demand and they will pull power from all sources possible.
Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks PJM know exactly where it gets the capacity to meet its peak demand and it has a process to certify and qualify those sources.

Some of you seem to be under the impression that electrons move through the grid like water through a pipe.

Last edited by vec101; 05-14-2009 at 02:32 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2009, 11:02 AM
 
23,925 posts, read 11,907,496 times
Reputation: 10117
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
Moderator cut: No insults or personal attacks PJM know exactly where it gets the capacity to meet its peak demand and it has a process to certify and qualify those sources.

Some of you seem to be under the impression that electrons move through the grid like water through a pipe.
They do when they have to pull power from areas with a surplus to meet demand.

Then its anybody's guess.

Last edited by vec101; 05-14-2009 at 02:32 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Green Living
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top