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Old 05-03-2009, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Charleston, WV
3,105 posts, read 6,624,845 times
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I'm really surprised environmental groups are not complaining about the amount of land needed for alternative sources of energy such as windmills.
Especially surprised they are not complaining about projects planned for Fed lands. Oh well, guess you can't have your cake and eat it too. Those protests will probably come in later years.

The Washington Post offers a chart which shows the amount of land needed for alternative types of energy sources.
Environmental Trade-Offs - washingtonpost.com

A 2002 study at Cornell states:
Quote:
Furthermore, the analysis states alternative energy systems -- such as hydroelectric, solar and wind power and biofuels -- if fully developed would occupy up to one-sixth of America's land area. Renewable Energy Anyone?
Quote:
In March, the U.S. Interior Department secretary Ken Salazar, recently issued an order to create a special task force to encourage the development of renewable energy projects on federal lands. Obama Administration Will Develop Renewable Energy on Public Land
More info at Environmental Impacts of Renewable Energy Technologies | Union of Concerned Scientists
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Old 05-03-2009, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Charleston, WV
3,105 posts, read 6,624,845 times
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Looking further I see there are some environmental groups complaining about the use of land to build windmills. Normal for We The People - we want something as long as it's not in our backyard.

Wind Watch: Groups speak out against proposed windmill project (http://www.wind-watch.org/news/2007/06/13/groups-speak-out-against-proposed-windmill-project/ - broken link)
Leader of Ohio Environmental Group Testifies Against Wind Power Proposal - by E.J. Donovan - Environment & Climate News

and others
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Old 05-03-2009, 09:45 AM
 
Location: The beautiful Rogue Valley, Oregon
7,253 posts, read 15,281,477 times
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So you're surprised when you think they aren't and then when you look into it and find they are, you complain? Moderator cut: No personal attacks

Last edited by vec101; 05-03-2009 at 10:44 AM..
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Old 05-03-2009, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Charleston, WV
3,105 posts, read 6,624,845 times
Reputation: 835
I didn't do any complaining. I read the article on land use and of Fed land use.
Was surprised groups do not object. Many environmental groups object for things such as power grids being built. (It's not just groups from the effected area that object.)

However, groups don't seem to be objecting about windmills, etc. going up unless they are being built in their area.
Then remarked how typical of us as humans that we want stuff but don't want it in our backyard.

BTW - When I stated alternative uses of land use - it was as in "different" not as in "alternative meaning green". If you look at the chart - it shows all types of energy generating land use.

I'm all for more efficient, better, cleaner forms of energy.
I don't think windmills are the solution for our future.
I think solar is great (but does take up a lot of land mass), I think using better methods for coal and gas is great.
I think using landfill gas, garbage, and other unusual methods etc. are even more awesome.

Last edited by vec101; 05-03-2009 at 11:07 AM.. Reason: addi info
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Old 05-05-2009, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,505 posts, read 51,230,061 times
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Check my post on the Holcomb coal plant thread.
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Old 05-05-2009, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,241,482 times
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The Post article is wrong about wind and essentially wrong about PV. Wind turbines might cover 27.8 square miles per terawatt, depending upon your assumptions, but all but about 50-60 acres of that could still be farmed. The turbine only encumber the land required for their foundations, which is much smaller than the area around and between the turbines. You can continue to farm of otherwise utilize the land for its original purpose. That's why the farmers really like wind turbines on their land. They get $4-5 thousand per year for each turbine and can continue to farm the land as before.

PV if it's roof mounted doesn't encumber any land that isn't already encumbered.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:00 AM
 
Location: I think my user name clarifies that.
8,293 posts, read 23,102,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch View Post
The Post article is wrong about wind and essentially wrong about PV. Wind turbines might cover 27.8 square miles per terawatt, depending upon your assumptions, but all but about 50-60 acres of that could still be farmed. The turbine only encumber the land required for their foundations, which is much smaller than the area around and between the turbines. You can continue to farm of otherwise utilize the land for its original purpose. That's why the farmers really like wind turbines on their land. They get $4-5 thousand per year for each turbine and can continue to farm the land as before.

PV if it's roof mounted doesn't encumber any land that isn't already encumbered.
Excellent point, and I'm glad you made it!

Where my "retired" dad still farms, there have been literally hundreds upon hundreds of wind generators go up in the past 10 years (maybe thousands). They lease an easement on the farmers' land.

What is required of the farmer is little more than a path to each of the wind generators, and the actual area the foundations covers.

The vast majority of the ground is still tillable. Also, it's good to note that some (I don't know how many) of these wind generators are going up on land that wasn't tilled. It's rough pasture land that is used for grazing cattle.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Washington DC
5,915 posts, read 7,241,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregW View Post
Check my post on the Holcomb coal plant thread.
I see the new governor cut a deal on the Holcomb Plant.
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Old 05-05-2009, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
7,090 posts, read 10,737,095 times
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I've been wondering about the same. Watching the Discovery Channel about some of these new ideas has been enlightening. In places like Spain and the Australian outback they are pioneering technologies, though green, take up massive amounts of space. Just the test facilities for warm air convection plants (stick a big greenhouse that grows in height to a big central turbine) take up the size of 4 football fields...and they want to build 8 much larger facilities in full production! Same with the solar concentrators, you have big mirrors pointing to a central tower that's almost as big in area...and they want to make it larger with a central tower filled with molten sodium (hope it doesn't rain and the tower cracks, you'll kill everything in a mile radius).
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Old 05-05-2009, 11:11 PM
 
Location: Charleston, WV
3,105 posts, read 6,624,845 times
Reputation: 835
I vote for this idea :
Windmills Atop NYC Bridges, Buildings?
FOXNews.com - Windmills Atop NYC Bridges, Buildings? - America's News HQ
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