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Old 09-09-2013, 06:47 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
5,147 posts, read 6,375,746 times
Reputation: 1562

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One of the Hawaiian islands has a biofuel facility next to the dump. To prevent grease from being in the landfill. Not remembering how much need they fulfill, but its a nice pilot project.
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:41 PM
 
222 posts, read 400,068 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
That's pretty funny. There's surplus generation around all the time. Always has been. It's the nature of the industry. I remember some systems having 40% excess capacity in the 80s.

How can supply exceed demand on an electrical grid? You certainly have never seen it happen. Not pretty? Doesn't happen.
Sorry you feel that way sir. I do hope you will google and read the BPA Oversupply Management Protocol and FERC's response. And yes, I have seen it. And yes, it isn't pretty. And no, it isn't one bit funny.

From: BPA Factsheet.http://www.bpa.gov/news/pubs/FactShe...oversupply.pdf

Hydroelectric dams generate large amounts of electricity during high river flows. But BPA must keep electricity supply from exceeding power demand, which can jeopardize the reliability of the power system. When there is insufficient demand, water is sent through spillways rather than through turbines to reduce generation. But spilling water can increase total dissolved gas in the river to levels that can harm aquatic species , including salmon. In such conditions, BPA maximizes hydropower generation and offers the electricity at low or no cost to substitute for the output of coal, natural gas and other thermal power plants. Thermal plants typically shut down, saving fuel costs. But wind energy producers have a different financial structure; most still operate because their contracts provide revenues that depend on continued power generation from their generating units. During high water conditions in 2011, BPA established an interim Environmental Redispatch protocol to manage electricity generation. From May 18 through early July 2011, during hours of low power demand, BPA replaced most thermal power and about 6 percent of scheduled wind energy with low cost or free federal hydropower. During the spring 2011 oversupply, the wind reduction amounted to 1 to 2 percent of the wind generators’ annual production. Reducing thermal and wind generation helped maximize hydro generation and minimize total dissolved gas levels. BPA did not compensate generators, so the cost of wind curtailment was borne by wind operators and purchasers. Wind project owners and other parties filed a complaint with FERC on June 13, 2011, arguing that BPA discriminated against wind projects by curtailing their generation and substituting hydropower for wind power.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:07 PM
 
222 posts, read 400,068 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
Credible estimates of inactive wind farms is between 1 and 2% of the US total, and most of those date back to the 70s, with greatly outdated technology. The deactivated windfarm at Southpoint, on the Big Island, has now been replaced by much larger and more efficient turbines. And the large windfarm on the island of Lahaina is being doubled in size.
My concern is what will the future look like when onshore wind power is largely supplanted with offshore? Who will pay deconstruction costs?
Offshore Wind Development Coalition - New jobs for clean energy
A Window on the Future of Offshore Wind Turbines

Who paid for the removal in Hawaii?

If this works, here is a map of current and proposed wind farms in part of Oregon and Washington
http://transmission.bpa.gov/PlanProj...d_map_2012.pdf
http://transmission.bpa.gov/PlanProj...Graph_2017.pdf
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:10 PM
 
222 posts, read 400,068 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Really?
We have 63 peakshavers 2k to10k HP and are running them pretty hard this Summer......You can cajole people only so far...When it's hot the AC is coming on and staying on......And when it's hot in Minnesota the wind tends not to blow...your wind towers are just more load on the system......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenhere4ever View Post
Wow, where did you get that idea. Tornadoes are very much correlated with hot days in Minnesota. The tornado watches correlate with hot days and southern winds.
I never thought about what a tornado could do to a wind farm.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:19 PM
 
222 posts, read 400,068 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
How do you like swinging that Hydro unit? I was speaking at an EPRI conferance a few years back and some BPA guys said they were hateing it!!!
The BPA guys have all the fun!!! I'm USACE. It's been pretty quiet around here this year, so far.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:46 AM
 
Location: DC
6,543 posts, read 6,517,355 times
Reputation: 3138
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonpostal View Post
Sorry you feel that way sir. I do hope you will google and read the BPA Oversupply Management Protocol and FERC's response. And yes, I have seen it. And yes, it isn't pretty. And no, it isn't one bit funny.

From: BPA Factsheet.http://www.bpa.gov/news/pubs/FactShe...oversupply.pdf

Hydroelectric dams generate large amounts of electricity during high river flows. But BPA must keep electricity supply from exceeding power demand, which can jeopardize the reliability of the power system. When there is insufficient demand, water is sent through spillways rather than through turbines to reduce generation. But spilling water can increase total dissolved gas in the river to levels that can harm aquatic species , including salmon. In such conditions, BPA maximizes hydropower generation and offers the electricity at low or no cost to substitute for the output of coal, natural gas and other thermal power plants. Thermal plants typically shut down, saving fuel costs. But wind energy producers have a different financial structure; most still operate because their contracts provide revenues that depend on continued power generation from their generating units. During high water conditions in 2011, BPA established an interim Environmental Redispatch protocol to manage electricity generation. From May 18 through early July 2011, during hours of low power demand, BPA replaced most thermal power and about 6 percent of scheduled wind energy with low cost or free federal hydropower. During the spring 2011 oversupply, the wind reduction amounted to 1 to 2 percent of the wind generators’ annual production. Reducing thermal and wind generation helped maximize hydro generation and minimize total dissolved gas levels. BPA did not compensate generators, so the cost of wind curtailment was borne by wind operators and purchasers. Wind project owners and other parties filed a complaint with FERC on June 13, 2011, arguing that BPA discriminated against wind projects by curtailing their generation and substituting hydropower for wind power.
I'm a PE with 40 years in the industry. BPA has minimum flow requirements on their dams, but they can always divert water through spillways and and around turbines or alternatively pay wind generators for their lost revenue when they are curtailed -- easy peasy for an engineer.
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Minnysoda
8,682 posts, read 8,590,682 times
Reputation: 5215
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
I'm a PE with 40 years in the industry. BPA has minimum flow requirements on their dams, but they can always divert water through spillways and and around turbines or alternatively pay wind generators for their lost revenue when they are curtailed -- easy peasy for an engineer.
Guess we should all just close the doors huh?

We curtail wind all the time...............

MISO says curtailments of wind generation rises sharply in 2010 - Electric Power | Platts News Article & Story
Gotten worse since then....


so does everyone else...

BPA Orders NW Wind Farms to Curtail Production · EarthFix · Oregon Public Broadcasting
And for the second straight year, the government agency charged with both marketing hydropower from federal dams dams and running the region’s power grid has ordered the growing wind-energy sector to stop producing — and selling — electricity.

or
WEO
Curtailments
or Idaho power
https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2012...of-low-demand/

or
North American Windpower: New Rule Could Lead To More Wind Energy Curtailment In Midwest

Maybe you should read this paper to get up to speed on todays energy industry?
http://www.khargonekar.ece.ufl.edu/p...tWindPower.pdf
[SIZE=6][SIZE=6]Market Induced Curtailment of Wind Power
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:10 PM
 
222 posts, read 400,068 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever View Post
I'm a PE with 40 years in the industry. BPA has minimum flow requirements on their dams, but they can always divert water through spillways and and around turbines or alternatively pay wind generators for their lost revenue when they are curtailed -- easy peasy for an engineer.
Yes sir.

What could be done and what is done are two different things. We wish we could do a lot of things differently. There are reasons we don't and reasons we can't. I'm sure BPA feels the same.

Unfortunately, spilling water does not always solve the problem. Plus, there's a limit to how much can be spilled. We are bound by law to keep dissolved oxygen levels no greater than 20% above fish equilibrium point the last time I looked.

Paying wind generators to feather turbines has been settled at the national level. BPA politics is there business and fortunately not mine.

I do what I'm told to do. There are things I've seen that seriously bother me and many others. That was the reason for my post.

I'm glad you've had a long, storied PE career. I'm five years behind you. If you're ever in the area send me a PM and I'll buy you lunch and show you around.

Good luck and best wishes.

Last edited by gonpostal; 09-10-2013 at 01:22 PM..
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:51 PM
 
Location: DC
6,543 posts, read 6,517,355 times
Reputation: 3138
Just pointing out that there are very straightforward solutions to the problem, which is really unique to BPA due to the large amount of hydro in their system. Regardless, all of these "problems" have simple engineering solutions and straightforward business solutions. What often complicates things is that one party doesn't want to pay the cost of their decision. Few things are really hard when you approach the situation pragmatically.
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Old 09-10-2013, 01:56 PM
 
Location: DC
6,543 posts, read 6,517,355 times
Reputation: 3138
Quote:
Originally Posted by my54ford View Post
Guess we should all just close the doors huh?

We curtail wind all the time...............

MISO says curtailments of wind generation rises sharply in 2010 - Electric Power | Platts News Article & Story
Gotten worse since then....


so does everyone else...

BPA Orders NW Wind Farms to Curtail Production · EarthFix · Oregon Public Broadcasting
And for the second straight year, the government agency charged with both marketing hydropower from federal dams dams and running the region’s power grid has ordered the growing wind-energy sector to stop producing — and selling — electricity.

or
WEO
Curtailments
or Idaho power
https://www.wind-watch.org/news/2012...of-low-demand/

or
North American Windpower: New Rule Could Lead To More Wind Energy Curtailment In Midwest

Maybe you should read this paper to get up to speed on todays energy industry?
http://www.khargonekar.ece.ufl.edu/p...tWindPower.pdf
[SIZE=6][SIZE=6]Market Induced Curtailment of Wind Power
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
No need to close doors, but a generator with a take or pay contract gets paid even if you don't take. In fact you're probably going to pay more to curtail him than to take the power if he is still on a PTC. I don't need an academic paper to understand power supply contracts.
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