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Old 04-22-2010, 10:19 AM
 
1,882 posts, read 4,119,102 times
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Why a Big Mac Costs Less Than a Salad - Economix Blog - NYTimes.com

"Of course, there are surely other reasons why burgers are cheaper than salads. These might include production costs, since harvesting apples is probably more naturally seasonal than slaughtering cows (even though both are in demand year-round). Transportation and storage costs might also play a role, as itís probably easier to keep ground beef fresh and edible for extended periods of time, by freezing it, than cucumbers."

If you have a problem w/subsidies, talk to your congressman.

If you've every seen/had a big mac, it's not all made of meat. And lets not get started on the "beef" pattie. Where did the meat come from for awhile? Was it Australia? Is it still come'n from there?

I'm all for cutting subsidies. Let the market find the price. I understand why you don't want to pay for subsidies that go towards beef/dairy.

BTW, that study was done during the last farm bill. Don't know how much it has changed, but I know it has.

Interesting, thanks Random.
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Old 04-22-2010, 10:50 AM
 
Location: San Diego North County
4,800 posts, read 7,869,254 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
LOL..... Wrong, not even close.

Kele, I wouldn;t even both reading any of your links or inofrmation until you an show me some resources from some sources that could be deemed even somewhat unbiased.
I see. None of these sources could be possibly be considered unbiased because they all have a stake in whether or not YOU stop consuming livestock.

Quote:
Anderson, D.C., K. T. Harper, and R. C. Holmgren. 1982. "Factors influencing development of cryptogamic soil crusts in Utah deserts." Journal of Range Management 35:180-185.

Armour, Carl, D.A. Duff, and W. Elmore. 1991. "The Effects of livestock grazing on riparian and stream ecosystems." Fisheries. 16:7-11.

Belsky, J., A. Matzke, and S. Uselman. 2002. “What the River Once Was: Livestock Destruction of Western Waters and Wetlands.” Pages 179 – 182 in G. Wuerthner and M. Matteson, eds. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Island Press, Washington, D.C.

Bock, Carl E. 2002. “Birds and Bovines: Effects of Livestock Grazing on Birds in the West.” Pages 217 – 219 in G. Wuerthner and M. Matteson, eds. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Island Press, Washington, D.C.

Bock, C.E., V.A. Saab, T.D. Rich, and D.S. Dobkin. 1993. "Effects of livestock grazing on Neotropical migratory landbirds in western North America." Pages 296-309 in D.M. Finch and P.W. Stangel, eds.

Status and management of Neotropical migratory birds. General Technical Report RM-229. U.S. Forest Service. Rocky Mountain Forest and Range Experiment Station. Fort Collins, CO.

Bureau of Land Management. 1989. Research and Demonstration Program Plan to Restore and Maintain Native Plant Diversity on Deteriorated Rangelands in the Great Basin and Columbia Plateau. U.S. Department of the Interior, BLM, Portland, Oregon.

Carter, John. 2002. “Stink Water: Declining Water Quality Due to Livestock Production.” Pages 189 – 192 in G. Wuerthner and M. Matteson, eds. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Island Press, Washington, D.C.

D'Antonio, C.M. and P.M. Vitousek. 1992. "Biological invasions by exotic grasses, the grass/fire cycle, and global change." Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 23:63-87.

Engle, Janice. 2002. “Silent Springs: Threats to Frog habitat from Livestock Production.” Pages 207 – 208 in G. Wuerthner and M. Matteson, eds. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Island Press, Washington, D.C.

Flather, C.H., L.A. Joyce, and C.A. Bloomgarden. 1994. Species Endangerment Patterns in the United States. U.S Department of Agriculture, Forest Service, General Technical Report RM-241.

Fleishner, Thomas L. 1994. "Ecological costs of Livestock Grazing in Western North America." Conservation Biology 8: 629-644.

Jones, Allison. 2002. “Surveying the West: A Summary of Research on Livestock Impacts.” Pages 171 – 173 in G. Wuerthner and M. Matteson, eds. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Island Press, Washington, D.C.

Kauffman, J. Boone. 2002. “Lifeblood of the West: Riparian Zones, Biodiversity, and Degradation by Livestock.” Pages 175 – 176 in G. Wuerthner and M. Matteson, eds. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Island Press, Washington, D.C.

National Research Council. 1994. Rangeland Health: New Methods to Classify, Inventory, and Monitor Rangelands. National Academy Press, Washington, DC.
Nowakowski, Nancy, P.F. Ffolliott, and D.R. Patton. 1982.

"Run Wild -- Wildlife/Habitat Relationships: Livestock-Wildlife Interactions in the Southwest. U.S. Department of Agriculture. Forest Service, Southwestern Region, Wildlife Unit Technical Report.

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 1990. Livestock Grazing on Western Riparian Areas.

U.S. Forest Service and BLM. 1994. Environmental Assessment for the Implementation of Interim Strategies for Managing Anadramous Fish-Producing Watersheds in Eastern Oregon and Washington, Idaho and Portions of California.

U.S. General Accounting Office. 1991. BLM's Hot Desert Grazing Program Merits Reconsideration.

Wuerthner, George and Mollie Matteson. 2002. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Island Press, Washington, D.C.

Willers, Bill. 2002. “Where Bison Once Roamed: The Impacts of Cattle and Sheep on Native Herbivores.” Pages 241-244 in G. Wuerthner and M. Matteson, eds. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West. Island Press, Washington, D.C.
Yeah, I can see how you would consider sources such as the U.S. Forest Service, The Bureau of Land Management, the Environment Protection Agency, the United Nations, as well as scholarly articles in the field of environmental studies to be biased. These are the citations from just one of the studies I posted. I can give you many, many more if you like.

You wanted to know what I do for a living? I'm a Forest Service archaeologist. I think I'm rather in a better position than most to see the devastation cattle grazing has inflicted upon the forests of America.

By the way, you had better get over that antiquated idea of "Old MacDonald Had A Farm" mentality you're operating off of. Factory farms far outnumber family owned farms in the United States.

You should educate yourself on the "benefits" of factory farming. Here, I'll give you a head start.

HFA [ F a c t o r y F a r m i n g ]

Last edited by Kele; 04-22-2010 at 11:02 AM..
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:16 AM
 
39,519 posts, read 40,848,534 times
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Kele I'm not suggesting there isn't any environmental concerns with farming, anything we do is going to effect the environment. It's mater of being practical. The trouble with any of these topics is getting to the heart of the issue and when we have statements like "no forests left in 50 years" it is certainly not helping things.

Quote:
Yeah, I can see how you would consider sources such as the U.S. Forest Service, The Bureau of Land Management, the Environment Protection Agency, the United Nations,
The quote and link I posted is from US forest Service study.

While we have to trust someone you always need to question if their is an agenda. While I'm more likely to trust US government agencies you can take anything from the UN and throw it right in the garbage.
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Old 04-22-2010, 11:25 AM
 
1,882 posts, read 4,119,102 times
Reputation: 2661
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kele View Post

You wanted to know what I do for a living? I'm a Forest Service archaeologist. I think I'm rather in a better position than most to see the devastation cattle grazing has inflicted upon the forests of America.

By the way, you had better get over that antiquated idea of "Old MacDonald Had A Farm" mentality you're operating off of. Factory farms far outnumber family owned farms in the United States.

You should educate yourself on the "benefits" of factory farming. Here, I'll give you a head start.

HFA [ F a c t o r y F a r m i n g ]
Forest Service Archaeologist, that sounds like fun to me. Thanks for let'n me know, sounds interesting.

Are the trees being cleared for livestock or urban sprawl? I'm guess'n you have stats on that, would be very interesting, imho.

I am one that you hate, I'm sorry. We have a family farm but according to some it is called a factory farm. I actually know first hand how it all works. It's not all pretty and roses here, sometimes it stinks...it's those dang cow farts. I also believe that I am in a better postition than most to see the truth, not the movie. Not everyone is evil and kicks animals. You've also got to understand that a pig/cow/chicken can feed a family healthier than going to the burger joints, and cheaper.

IMHO, nothing can be a blanket statement. Not everyone can eat meat, not everyone can be vegetarian.
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Old 04-22-2010, 01:06 PM
 
25,630 posts, read 30,467,612 times
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Just signed up my daughter for hunter's safety courses today. We plan on killing our red meat the natural way. Shooting it in the forest. We will be reducing the bear, deer, duck and pheasant populations this year so as to help the world wide ungulate farting problem contributing to global warming. That's how I'm teaching my kids about Earth Day!
Methane reduction through population reduction!
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Old 04-22-2010, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Georgia
897 posts, read 1,459,336 times
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I care about it,but I'm got a Gaia worshiper like most extreme Treehuggers are.
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:22 PM
 
Location: 125 Years Too Late...
10,884 posts, read 10,581,651 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_Random View Post

http://www.pcrm.org/magazine/gm07autumn/images/pyramid.jpg (broken link)

Damn, I like the federal nutritional recommendations with the big 'grains' category down there at the bottom--the foundation, no less! You vegans were making me feel paranoid about all the grains I eat. Now I see I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. So here's a question for all you bean sprout folks: have you had your ELEVEN servings of grain today??? I have.

As I side issue, why is it that many vegetarians/vegans have a 'thing' against grains? Don't tell me they don't, because I've noticed it over the years. It's almost as bad as their distaste for meat.
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,288 posts, read 7,615,140 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC View Post
As I side issue, why is it that many vegetarians/vegans have a 'thing' against grains? Don't tell me they don't, because I've noticed it over the years. It's almost as bad as their distaste for meat.
I am a vegetarian & proud lover of carbs!

And I agree with the Captain it's really subsidies that are at issue here -corn is crazy-subsidized, that's why they want to use for fuel even though it takes about 7x as much energy to grow it as you get back.
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:48 PM
 
1,882 posts, read 4,119,102 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi-town Native View Post
...that's why they want to use for fuel even though it takes about 7x as much energy to grow it as you get back.
I'm sorry but that is not true. But it was worth a shot, eh?
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Old 04-22-2010, 04:58 PM
 
11,256 posts, read 43,464,602 times
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Some of us are unable to follow the diet guidelines that most vegetarians/vegans survive on.

I know many people who have celiac disease, or others with IBS, or similar types of digestive system disorders.

In my own case, if I eat more than 30 grams of carb's per day, I gain weight, and have very high cholesterol levels. I got to prove the carbs as the specific problem by doing the elimination/rotation diet and blood testing to confirm the results where my total cholesterol is now in mid acceptable range and my LDL's/HDL's are low range. For decades, I'd already eliminated HFCS, white sugar, any sugar substitute, MSG, caffeine, nitrates/nitrites, and a whole host of other food items that most people would consider essential in their diet ... and I've been on a very low salt diet for over 40 years (but I do use a lot of spicy chili peppers, fresh & dried, and many herbs from our garden/greenhouses).

I love many varieties of fruit, rice, brown rice, potatoes, and corn (and corn products) ... my doc had me eliminate all of these from my diet for 2 weeks and I lost 20 lbs and 2 inches off my waist ... and by keeping these items out of my diet, I'm continuing to lose weight over the last 4 months. Now heading back into the clothes sizes that I wore 40 + years ago. My diet is principally meat (red, white, and fish), legumes, citrus (in small quantities), fresh vegetables, small amounts of fresh fruit, and GF oatmeal (a small portion, for breakfast). No fried foods. No fast foods. No prepared convenience foods, canned or frozen. No soda. Minimal alcohol intake, perhaps a six-pack per year (although my Doc wants me to have a glass of red wine daily). No coffee or regular tea, only herbal tea. No breads (do you know how hard it is to give up bagels/lox/cream cheese/onion?), no crackers, no snack foods. We cure and smoke our own bacon, so no preservatives, and are planning on making our own sausage starting this year. I smoke my own ducks, geese, chicken, and turkey, raised on our organic feeds and free ranged on the pastures around our barns.

Finding food out in my travels isn't difficult if there's a supermarket nearby ... but most restaurant food is off limits for me, especially fast food places.

As I see many people my age with diabetes or in a pre-diabetic threshold (where they can still control their blood sugar without meds through a stringent diet), I know that they've got similar problems when I've seen their prior high carb diets ... all the hidden sugars, HFCS, rice, wheat, corn, and other sources of high glycemic index food.

Again, I respect anybody's personal decision to be a vegetarian. There's certainly a lot of articles pro ... and con ... about this type of diet. But an agenda that a vegetarian diet is best for all ... I know for fact it will not work for me, my wife, many of our relatives, and many of our acquaintances. There's some interesting books out on the topic, too ... about eating "right" for your ethnic background ... which I find to be substantially correct about dietary intake and resulting chronic problems, even disease potential.

Last edited by sunsprit; 04-22-2010 at 05:11 PM..
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