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Old 09-17-2010, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,288 posts, read 7,586,675 times
Reputation: 2453

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The thing is, I agree that it's healthy to take a skeptical approach. But I think it's pretty clear that Nomander isn't simply a broken record, he's a man (you just know this is a guy) with an agenda, following the fossil fuel industry-funded recommendation for stalling progress:

Keep pretending the science is unclear and unsettled, and try to push the day of reckoning back a few more years so the industry can milk every last drop of crude out of the earth. The irony here is BP, Exxon, Shell, etc. are all poised and ready to shift to more renewable energies, they would just prefer to maximize their capital outlays on oil rigs, processing stations, etc. That's logical for a corporation, but not for humanity as a whole. He says things like " I refuse to take such a small snapshot of 30 years and make conclusions. That would be... irresponsible to say the least. " Yet all he's done in recent months is try and spin data from a smaller timeframe.

The timeframe I'm interested in, is the NOW - as it's too late to stop the climate from changing, all we can do is try to mitigate further extreme shifts, and deal with it.

In Chicago we're getting rains every year that used to come every generation. Basement flooding due to the water table rising used to be a rarity, now it's barely even news - when we had a basement waterproofing company come give us a bid for drain tiles, they said they've never had business like this in their 40 year history - and there was a 2 month wait just to get an estimate.

Now we see more proof of the warming in terms of the plant hardiness zones - which aren't trivial for a city fighting urban heat island effect, and which has spent millions upon millions of dollars planting trees to counter it. Some of those trees planted over the last 20+ years aren't going to be able to adapt to the new climate.

So this certainly all hits home.

Regarding the professional deniers, I saw a critique of the American Museum of Natural History's Climate Change exhibit (now on display in Chicago) published by these goofs:

The Heartland Institute
Heartland Institute - SourceWatch

Heartland Policy Advisor Norm Rogers and Patrick J. Michaels of the School of Public Policy at George Mason University don't have much positive to say about the Field Museum of Chicago's new exhibit on climate change. They found the exhibit "preachy" and "alarmist," among other things.


In the literature they had up on the web/editorials they somehow snuck into local media, they claimed global warming could be a net positive - that's what we call 100% missing the boat, and people who clearly do not understand what threats to biodiversity mean.

 
Old 09-17-2010, 09:58 AM
 
108 posts, read 113,941 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chi-town Native View Post
The thing is, I agree that it's healthy to take a skeptical approach. But I think it's pretty clear that Nomander isn't simply a broken record, he's a man (you just know this is a guy) with an agenda, following the fossil fuel industry-funded recommendation for stalling progress:

Keep pretending the science is unclear and unsettled, and try to push the day of reckoning back a few more years so the industry can milk every last drop of crude out of the earth. The irony here is BP, Exxon, Shell, etc. are all poised and ready to shift to more renewable energies, they would just prefer to maximize their capital outlays on oil rigs, processing stations, etc. That's logical for a corporation, but not for humanity as a whole. He says things like " I refuse to take such a small snapshot of 30 years and make conclusions. That would be... irresponsible to say the least. " Yet all he's done in recent months is try and spin data from a smaller timeframe.

The timeframe I'm interested in, is the NOW - as it's too late to stop the climate from changing, all we can do is try to mitigate further extreme shifts, and deal with it.

In Chicago we're getting rains every year that used to come every generation. Basement flooding due to the water table rising used to be a rarity, now it's barely even news - when we had a basement waterproofing company come give us a bid for drain tiles, they said they've never had business like this in their 40 year history - and there was a 2 month wait just to get an estimate.

Now we see more proof of the warming in terms of the plant hardiness zones - which aren't trivial for a city fighting urban heat island effect, and which has spent millions upon millions of dollars planting trees to counter it. Some of those trees planted over the last 20+ years aren't going to be able to adapt to the new climate.

So this certainly all hits home.

Regarding the professional deniers, I saw a critique of the American Museum of Natural History's Climate Change exhibit (now on display in Chicago) published by these goofs:

The Heartland Institute
Heartland Institute - SourceWatch

Heartland Policy Advisor Norm Rogers and Patrick J. Michaels of the School of Public Policy at George Mason University don't have much positive to say about the Field Museum of Chicago's new exhibit on climate change. They found the exhibit "preachy" and "alarmist," among other things.


In the literature they had up on the web/editorials they somehow snuck into local media, they claimed global warming could be a net positive - that's what we call 100% missing the boat, and people who clearly do not understand what threats to biodiversity mean.
A great response

thank you

From what I have posted and read at climateprogress.org

we will see no real limits of C02 till 2020- perhaps by 2030- when all hell lets lose globally and in the United states. C02 emissions may not peak till 2050- 3.5 degree C rise in global temps is now inevitable.

What we are seeing now' Ice melting and softening in the arctic, random droughts, floods, crop failure, heat waves, fires- all are a prelude- but fit perfectly into the climate models.

The plant hardiness zone is rising north (as predicted)
The time frame of drastic climate change has seen the window narrow- what was once seen as a future-50 years and beyond is here now- the longer we wait - the more costly it will become.

I hope the 'Tea party' people have some solutions that will be hitting them in the head real soon.
 
Old 09-17-2010, 11:56 AM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,394,061 times
Reputation: 2608
Keep posting, you want to make sure you bury my responses. That way people can click on the last responses and see you patting each other on the back for how smart you both are.

Seriously, you make this easy. Its like shooting fish in a barrel.
 
Old 09-17-2010, 12:25 PM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,288 posts, read 7,586,675 times
Reputation: 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelby93 View Post
From what I have posted and read at climateprogress.org

...I hope the 'Tea party' people have some solutions that will be hitting them in the head real soon.
will check out the link, thanks -

and as for the second point, not until they understand that they are just pawns in a much larger game:

Energy Firms Spending Millions to Thwart California Global Warming Law | FairWarning

source article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/us...ml?_r=1&ref=us

Charles and David Koch, the billionaires from Kansas who have played a prominent role in financing the Tea Party movement, donated $1 million to the campaign to suspend the Global Warming Solutions Act, which was passed four years ago, and signaled that they were prepared to invest more in the cause. With their contribution, proponents of the proposition have raised $8.2 million, with $7.9 million coming from energy companies, most of them out of state.
 
Old 09-17-2010, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,288 posts, read 7,586,675 times
Reputation: 2453
and oh yeesh, climateprogress led me to this less-than-cheery graphic:

NRDC: The Worst Summer Ever?

 
Old 09-17-2010, 12:39 PM
 
108 posts, read 113,941 times
Reputation: 32
'Climate Progress' by Joe Romm---worked for the energy Dept under the Clinton Administration is one of the best around.

The Koch brothers spend tens of millions in their 'crusade' to deny climate change- spread distortion & misinformation- and spread the 'flat earth society' fossil fuel doctrine.

Their tentacles reach far & wide. Enjoy climate progress- its a great site. I post there a few times a day. Also check out Skeptical Science: Examining Global Warming Skepticism more 'pure science'.

I fear for the future-not so much for me at age 58-- but for those younger, and much younger- they are going to face a hellish future- I hope those in denial- and those in bed with the fossil fuel industry have a good place to hide a few years from now.

Have fun! with CP- and skeptical Science
 
Old 09-17-2010, 02:30 PM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,394,061 times
Reputation: 2608
Keep pushing, a few more pages and you can claim victory! You can hide all that evidence and tell people how the world is ending! Keep it up! *chuckle*

I hope you got the memo on what they are calling global warming, I mean climate change now! Go ahead, let us know the new word of the day!

Seriously, you think you are changing opinion and bringing the word to people, but most people reading these forms know that what you are promoting is plain idiocy.

Go ahead though, call them filthy deniers!!! keep it up! Please!!! You solidify my point with every letter you type!

Now get to work! Post more and more! You need to push back the Deniers! Get with it!
 
Old 09-17-2010, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,288 posts, read 7,586,675 times
Reputation: 2453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Keep posting, you want to make sure you bury my responses. That way people can click on the last responses and see you patting each other on the back for how smart you both are.
... or, I can just keep bumping this quote to the top of the thread - it speaks volumes about your motives for posting here.
 
Old 09-17-2010, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Nort Seid
5,288 posts, read 7,586,675 times
Reputation: 2453
Video Footage Shows Huge Walrus Haul-Out Along Shoreline of Alaska's Point Lay | WWF Climate Blog

The U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) has released stunning video footage filmed by Dan Zatz (of ZatzWorks) showing the epic scale of events unfolding in Alaska this Fall (September 2010). Many thousands of walruses -- mostly females and their young -- have been forced to haul-out on land at Point Lay on the Chukchi Sea as the sea ice they depend on has melted away from the region.
 
Old 09-18-2010, 04:19 AM
 
108 posts, read 113,941 times
Reputation: 32
The Walruses Chi Town where 'beached' NO ICE- the Chukchi Sea became ice free almost.

The arctic is the 'Air Conditioner' of the planet- when it becomes ice free in late summer- and that could be by 2013, 2017 or 2020- it means that direct sunlight is no longer being reflected back into space- and is absorbed into the dark waters....

it means more storms for us in mid latitudes- in the summer more extreme weather-, droughts, downpours etc- and in the winter more extremes as well- snowstorms, rains, ice storms.

As James Hansen predicted- Read 'Storms of My Grandchildren' by him- you will be chilled by what he has predicted (which has been scary accurate-) to what could happen to us........
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