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I doubt Greensboro's interstates are that much of an advantage. First, I-40 traffic also goes through Winston-Salem, so that's a wash. Secondly, the I-85 traffic now completely bypasses Greensboro with the new outer loop. Sure, there's some effect, but I doubt a large percentage of I-85 travelers are stopping in Greensboro if it's not their destination. Third, the I-74 to US 311 route through Winston-Salem is now the preferred route for most beach traffic coming from West Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, etc., and will become even more attractive as the interstate upgrades are completed through the city. That traffic helps neutralize the I-85 advantage--it's amazing how many license tags you see from those states during the warmer months. And some of those people stay for the night in W-S as it's a good stopping point for them.
I think it's great that both cities have major interstates passing through--it's a great selling point for business relocation.
New forum member here. I live in Charlotte but visit a lot of other cities throughout NC (and elsewhere).
Not a fan of city vs city debates as they seem always to run into negative territory but I thought I would chime in.
Pros and Cons of Winston Salem
Pros:
- Impressive downtown for a city it's size.
- Downtown development is spread throughout so it's not just focused on one strip
- The little arts district
- Easy to access downtown via highway
Cons:
- The previous Pro of development throughout downtown has a few holes in it (visual/pedestrian wise) that work against the downtown experience.
- While it has several strong economic drivers they are small and I think the city needs to get something going about it's direction/focus or else it will lose out in attracting people/business.
- The triad airport is clearly more in Greensboro's neck of the woods
-The city seems to be on the more conservative side which seems at battle with it's "Arts" city aspect. I think it needs to loosen up a little to attract a younger generation.
Check out the Wake Forest Innovation Quarter and it's economic impact on Winston Salem - it is coming on strong and seems to fill the con you have listed: Wake Forest Innovation Quarter
It really is frustrating to see development/revitalization almost totally focused on Elm Street. Elm Street is already strong, vibrant and will take care of its self. Downtown Greensboro is roughly a square mile and there are so many opportunities for redevelopment. A streetscaping plan for the square mile downtown would be a start. In regards to Elm Street I would like to downtown expanded even further south along Elm with redevelopment. I would like to see a new district along South Elm Street from Lee Street to the north and where South Elm and Eugene Streets converge to the south called "midtown" The urban core would then be expanded to two miles from North to South (the length of uptown Charlotte). In fact plans for the South Elm/Lee St project shows this entire area highlighted for future urban redevelopment.
In terms of highway access to downtown Greensboro, people typically refer to I-40. People forget about Highway 29 which is barely one mile east of downtown Greensboro. Highway 29 through Greensboro is a lot like Highway 52 through Winston-Salem. Highway 29 is so close to downtown Greensboro, the city's skyline is clearly visible from some parts of the highway. Highway 29 borders NC A&T State University to the east and downtown borders NC A&T State University to the west.
Downtown is kind of restricted in terms of expansion. Really the only direction it can go is south and east.
But even then, it can only go so far before it hits residential areas. Also if they dont act fast, UNCG is gonna take over the space that could have been downtown expansion..lol UNCG is an octopus!
Pretty much outside of 'main drag' elm st, its mostly gov/city/law office buildings locked into the landscape.
It will be interesting to see how they are gonna be able to squeeze more stuff into such a little space.
Perhaps upward?
The other problem, or so I often read about, and someone else here pointed out, is that folks in the neighborhoods bordering on expansion aren't taking to kindly to the idea of being pushed out of their neighborhoods/encroached on, and at the same time feel like they are also unwelcome to partake in downtown. Hopefully they can figure out a way to make it a win/win. It was surreal to see all those curfew signs downtown last summer.
Anyway, nobody really mentions it, at least folks i know, but there is already a lot going on , on the east side, bessemer/summit area(Aycock), which i dont think is considered downtown, but there is a lot of stuff going on over there. That whole area over there feels a lot more cohesive as a community than just about any other place in greensboro. It looks like it was planned and thought out well.
Multiple Fast food and sit down restaurants, Grocery stores and all kinds of shopping.
It would be neat to see that area revitalized back into its former self.
Last edited by Midwest1960; 05-12-2014 at 10:31 PM..
In regards to Downtown Greensboro, While many of the focus has been on elm, I think they do eventually plan on trying to bring more traffic to the other streets. I was reading an article on the triad business journal on how they had hoped that the baseball park would bring restaurants and retail. I think with the greenway at fisherpark part 2 coming, and on top of the downtown hotels, land has been bought for a 50 mill mix use project, plus the union square campus it self, even though along elm will be more than just the campus, but there will be union square apartments, and a mix of retail and restaurants coming along with it, at least that is the plan, I also think with the renovated homes on south side and the fact that Dame's chicken and waffles is usually full, you should see more around there eventually.
I just don't get the population difference between WS and GB, you ride through winston for the first time off the highway, take in the skyline and the downtown, and you would easily think it's aleast over 300.000 or even 400.000, but no...it's behind Durham by 5.000 or so people, and a whopping 50.000 or so people behind GSO.. what is going on with that, i know it should not upset me but it does..
Why has WS not grown, as much as GB? they are basically sister cities.. (something to do with annexation laws?)
pop est (2012)
GSO 278.080
Durham 239.358
W-S 234.349
it shouldn't be this way..
in 2010, WS was the 4th largest in NC, behind Charlotte,Raleigh,Greensboro....
^ Interesting that GSO and WS city limits cover about the same area, but population density is very different. WS is about 2100 people/sq. mile, while GSO is about 2600 per sq. mile. I think that's a win for WS, as we apparently have more breathing room here.
Don't know why you'd be upset with the numbers. I like the size of WS, and I don't necessarily want to see a boom in population as it would just bring all the headaches associated with that. Sure, some level of growth is desirable, but it needs to happen only if the infrastructure grows at a pace that can support it (e.g., jobs, traffic handling capability, schools, etc.). Also keep in mind that Guilford Co. is much larger than Forsyth, so ultimately GSO probably has more capacity for growth through annexation.
in 2010, WS was the 4th largest in NC, behind Charlotte,Raleigh,Greensboro....
But now it's 5th?
In 2010, Durham and Winston were separated by about 1300 people. That's pretty darn close for cities of this size. Considering 2012 is only an estimate and Durham's been particularly hot lately, the shift isn't surprising.
If you look at a city that is REALLY held back by annexation laws, the disparity is much more evident. Columbia, SC, for example, feels like it should be on par with Winston, and may actually feel a little bit bigger in spots. Sure, it's the capital and has USC, but that's only part of it. If you visited and had to guess the population, especially based on visits to Greensboro or Winston-Salem, you'd probably say 250-300k. It's actually closer to 130k, even though its metro is larger than either Winston or Greensboro (though not nearly as large as the Triad CSA)
I just don't get the population difference between WS and GB, you ride through winston for the first time off the highway, take in the skyline and the downtown, and you would easily think it's aleast over 300.000 or even 400.000, but no...it's behind Durham by 5.000 or so people, and a whopping 50.000 or so people behind GSO.. what is going on with that, i know it should not upset me but it does..
Why has WS not grown, as much as GB? they are basically sister cities.. (something to do with annexation laws?)
pop est (2012)
GSO 278.080
Durham 239.358
W-S 234.349
it shouldn't be this way..
in 2010, WS was the 4th largest in NC, behind Charlotte,Raleigh,Greensboro....
But now it's 5th?
It's not really that perplexing...Greensboro has annexed more than Winston-Salem recently, seemingly to remain first in the CSA listing. Growth of 20% per decade in GSO since 1980 didn't happen organically. The two were much closer in 1970 and 1980, but GSO pulled ahead with heavy annexation between 1980 and 1990 and W-S only grew by 8%. The same goes with Durham - over 35% growth in 1990 and 2000, and 22% in 2010. It's pretty easy to understand. Cities don't normally grow by those amounts outside of a MAJOR population boom.
The annexation laws are the same for all NC cities, but W-S wasn't as aggressive at times and the population fell behind. It's not that big a deal, other then top billing in the CSA listing.
It's not really that perplexing...Greensboro has annexed more than Winston-Salem recently, seemingly to remain first in the CSA listing. Growth of 20% per decade in GSO since 1980 didn't happen organically. The two were much closer in 1970 and 1980, but GSO pulled ahead with heavy annexation between 1980 and 1990 and W-S only grew by 8%. The same goes with Durham - over 35% growth in 1990 and 2000, and 22% in 2010. It's pretty easy to understand. Cities don't normally grow by those amounts outside of a MAJOR population boom.
The annexation laws are the same for all NC cities, but W-S wasn't as aggressive at times and the population fell behind. It's not that big a deal, other then top billing in the CSA listing.
hmmm, sounds like GSO did what Durham did with outstanding annexation back in the day, So W-S is actually more impressive since it didn't need annexation to get where it is now. But had they gone through with it, W-S would probably be pushing 300+ thousand people right now.
A small factor to keep in mind is that Greensboro is home to 8 (roughly) colleges and universities. The schools bring in their jobs but by nature of the students being there, it also creates jobs - apartment managers, food service, etc; you get the point.
Being a younger guy and just being in downtown Greensboro tonight on a Saturday - downtown Greensboro for the time being is really about 4-5 blocks of Elm St. Even hopping over to Greene, swinging down McGee, or Davie and you realize how quickly the scene changes.
As others have noted, you have some development around the ballpark but that's still several years off before it begins to show.
Then there's also the larger College Hill area, but the crowd I run in mainly sticks to College Hill Sundries and surrounding areas in the evenings.
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Growth of 20% per decade in GSO since 1980 didn't happen organically. The two were much closer in 1970 and 1980, but GSO pulled ahead with heavy annexation between 1980 and 1990 and W-S only grew by 8%. The same goes with Durham - over 35% growth in 1990 and 2000, and 22% in 2010. It's pretty easy to understand. Cities don't normally grow by those amounts outside of a MAJOR population boom.
