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Well we all know the tricks you can play with numbers. For instance, appears the 400+ jobs for JP have already been filled, and nobody seems to be screaming about parking. I would think a 'need' would be heavily supported by the fact that there are people who need to park downtown, but are unable to.
I see a lot of empty spaces and surface parking lots if you consider ALL of downtown (look at an aerial view). Part of the problem is people in cities like GSO think parking 4-7 blocks away from your destination is just uncivilized.
I'm not against the deck either, but numbers are manipulated all the time.
Well we all know the tricks you can play with numbers. For instance, appears the 400+ jobs for JP have already been filled, and nobody seems to be screaming about parking. I would think a 'need' would be heavily supported by the fact that there are people who need to park downtown, but are unable to.
I see a lot of empty spaces and surface parking lots if you consider ALL of downtown (look at an aerial view). Part of the problem is people in cities like GSO think parking 4-7 blocks away from your destination is just uncivilized.
I'm not against the deck either, but numbers are manipulated all the time.
Pretty much exactly my thoughts. Stats can be spun to say pretty much whatever you want them to say. In fact, a large part of the "studies" that cities often pay for is to not just collect the numbers, but how to best sell those numbers.
The reality is that if you need to park in downtown Greensboro, it's not hard to find a space. On a rare occasion, the ideal garage might be at capacity and you might have to (GASP!!) go to the next one a couple blocks up. This happens in the big cities all the time. In fact, in DC (where I lived for a couple years), during the day, you could have serious trouble even finding an open garage. Never had such an issue here. In fact, in Greensboro, I've NEVER had to park next to another car in a garage (I've always been able to easily find a space between two empty spaces.... and I've never even had to go to the top floor/roof to do it).
The city has produced the numbers for the need. The decks are at or near capacity and I do believe future projects are accounted for.
The Marriott downtown has always been a big loser since the hotel opened in the early 1980s. But the reason is because its a 300 room hotel. Without a downtown convention center, thats too big for downtown at this point. A single hotel that large is going to be a failure because not everbody is going to stay there. Again Westin attracts different clientele and its a smaller hotel so it shouldn't have a problem filling up. Not to mention it will have a conference center.
Maybe I'm not familiar enough with the vision, but for all this to work, is the Marriott essentially going away and the land used for future development? The crossover between Westin and Marriott will be more than you think as many people who stay at the Marriott do so because it is the downtown option. Hyatt Place is opening soon to give another option and a lot of the same people who stay at the Marriott will stay there. The Westin may be higher end, but they're not drawing clients out of thin air. The conference center may attract a few people downtown that otherwise wouldn't have stayed there, but 180 rooms a night, every night, 365 days a year? I don't buy that. Then, you have the A-Loft theoretically opening in a few years as well (a slightly more economical and trendy option from the Marriott).
Basically, you don't just build hotels and people show up. The people that will be staying in the Westin will not be staying somewhere else (and the vast majority of cases, they will be in the Westin instead of the Mariott or some other nearby hotel). The conference center will book a few extra rooms that might not otherwise have been filled.... but 65,700 room nights per year? Sure, some of those people will be downtown and thus will partake in downtown activities when they might not have otherwise done so.... but again, this will be more the exception than the rule. A few restaurants might sit an extra table or two a night. But again, in many cases, you're talking about people going to Crafted Art of the Taco and then to Little Brother/Natty Greenes instead of Crafted Art of the Street Food and then Preyer/Joymongers.
I like your optimism. I'm just not sure I see how the answer to a failing downtown hotel is another slightly higher-end hotel on the other side of downtown.
Pretty much exactly my thoughts. Stats can be spun to say pretty much whatever you want them to say. In fact, a large part of the "studies" that cities often pay for is to not just collect the numbers, but how to best sell those numbers.
The reality is that if you need to park in downtown Greensboro, it's not hard to find a space. On a rare occasion, the ideal garage might be at capacity and you might have to (GASP!!) go to the next one a couple blocks up. This happens in the big cities all the time. In fact, in DC (where I lived for a couple years), during the day, you could have serious trouble even finding an open garage. Never had such an issue here. In fact, in Greensboro, I've NEVER had to park next to another car in a garage (I've always been able to easily find a space between two empty spaces.... and I've never even had to go to the top floor/roof to do it).
Yes spaces can be found, but most people arent going to walk 4 or 5 blocks. The truth of the matter is downtown has to have plentiful parking within close proximity to new larger developments that require a lot of parking. If the city determined the need based on what you are describing, half the decks in uptown Charlotte didnt need to be built because there are still plenty of surface lots there. You cant build a 150 room Aloft hotel and a large office building overlooking the baseball field without some kind of deck nearby. No hotel would be built if their guest had to walk 3 or 4 blocks, Development would never happen. Seems like Greensboro always gets singled out for some reason or another. The same things Greensboro gets criticized for is pretty common in the other cities like Charlotte, Raleigh and Greenville, SC
Pretty much exactly my thoughts. Stats can be spun to say pretty much whatever you want them to say. In fact, a large part of the "studies" that cities often pay for is to not just collect the numbers, but how to best sell those numbers.
Yes and the most recent parking study for downtown G'boro was done in 2010. And it did not recommend a deck on the site the city is now considering.
In a deposition for the Cone Denim lawsuit, (former) City Manager Jim Westmoreland said the city had completed an internal update of that study in 2015. When he later was unable to produce such an update, he was forced to resign his position.
...No hotel would be built if their guest had to walk 3 or 4 blocks, Development would never happen. Seems like Greensboro always gets singled out for some reason or another. The same things Greensboro gets criticized for is pretty common in the other cities like Charlotte, Raleigh and Greenville, SC
Nobody is arguing whether or not it happens or is common. You said the 'need' had been proven. Two different things.
By the way, there are hotels in some central business districts that offer NO parking, NONE. I'm talking about mid-sized cities. Usually a valet takes cars to some place in distance where parking is available.
Charlotte has several professional sports teams based in the center city. It wouldn't be a stretch to believe that much parking revenue can be made on game days alone. It's not uncommon for parking to run $25-$30 per space during professional games. Greensboro has no such guaranteed recurring parking need from which an investor could justify expenses with potential revenue.
Nobody is arguing whether or not it happens or is common. You said the 'need' had been proven. Two different things.
By the way, there are hotels in some central business districts that offer NO parking, NONE. I'm talking about mid-sized cities. Usually a valet takes cars to some place in distance where parking is available.
True but those are typically cities with so much high density development, there is no room for parking decks. Thats not the case in Greensboro
Yes and the most recent parking study for downtown G'boro was done in 2010. And it did not recommend a deck on the site the city is now considering.
In a deposition for the Cone Denim lawsuit, (former) City Manager Jim Westmoreland said the city had completed an internal update of that study in 2015. When he later was unable to produce such an update, he was forced to resign his position.
Greensboro developer wants to create an innovation district in downtown Greensboro that will rival the innovation quarter in Winston-Salem. While Winston-Salem focuses on biotech, Greensboro's district would focus on other sectors. Developer Andy Zimmerman is seeking a partnership with the city's universities to get the ball rolling. His tech job project at the historic Gateway Center denim mill across the street from the Union Square University campus is just the begining. He has identified land south of Gate City Blvd for future expansion.
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