What is the principal city of the Triad? (Charlotte, Greensboro: condo, how much)

[cohaagen]

There is no single, principal city of the Triad. That's why it's the "Triad". Population - Greensboro's larger and will remain larger for some time. Historically, each city had a different overall "culture", but in these modern times, those distinctions are evaporating more quickly than the perception of jurisdictional boundaries.
Here are just a few general points about the area, though, based on my experience living all around the Triad and being a social scientist that concentrates on urban systems:

Winston has Wake Forest, which is likely the best school in the Triad, however, Greensboro easily has the best educational opportunities at every level. Other than Wake, Winston's colleges are sub-par. UNCG, A&T, Guilford and even Greensboro and Bennett are better than any other school in Winston (of course, HPU is at least as good a school as Guilford). GTCC is a vastly superior educational experience than Forsyth Tech, although Forsyth has been getting increased funding for better programs in recent years.
Primary and secondary education - no contest. Forsyth County schools are abysmal. Guilford/Greensboro has several of the nation's best schools, but Forsyth has none - public or private - worth mentioning.
Big one - TRAFFIC - Compared to comparably sized (150k-400k) cities, Greensboro has none. Planners have dropped the ball over the past 15 years, allowing a bit too much congestion to arise, but it's generally better than any other US city of this size. Winston, on the other hand... My God! It doesn't matter the time of day or part of town, this town's transportation network was quite poorly designed. It takes forever to get anywhere, and the city is so overbounded spatially (there are huge expanses of empty space within the city limits).
Overall, the Triad is an excellent place to live and work, and it really doesn't matter where you might choose to situate yourself, because no two parts of the region are very far apart, in a geographic or psychological sense. My personal choice, were personal feelings all that impacted such a decision, would be Greensboro. It's currently a preferable atmosphere and shows the greatest promise for the future.

[burgerboi]

I see that Elm&McGee has found his way over here from another forum. Up to his old tricks. Pretending to live in downtown Greensboro while bashing Greensboro and praising W-S. I hope people can see through who you are.

This type of thread will always bring out craziness. My advice for people who are interested in the Triad, come and see for your self. I would take the opinions and experiences of a handful of people with a grain of salt. Both cities are very close to one another and a lot like. There is quite a bit of competition between the two. Neither wants to think of the other as anyway bigger or better. However, technically GSO is the larger city between the two. Some people seem to have an inferiority complex about this and so they result to bashing GSO in ways to make themselves feel better. In the same way there are some from GSO who want to claim leadership because their city is a little larger. So you have to keep that in mind when reading opinions about either city. And of course just because someone says they live or have spent a lot of time somewhere doesnt mean its true.

The "grass always seems greener on the other side" as well "there is no place like home" are key phrases. It is always about one's perception and that perception becomes their reality.

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by cohaagen

Winston has Wake Forest, which is likely the best school in the Triad, however, Greensboro easily has the best educational opportunities at every level. Other than Wake, Winston's colleges are sub-par. UNCG, A&T, Guilford and even Greensboro and Bennett are better than any other school in Winston (of course, HPU is at least as good a school as Guilford). GTCC is a vastly superior educational experience than Forsyth Tech, although Forsyth has been getting increased funding for better programs in recent years.

Wake Forest is likely the best school in the Triad??? Wake Forest is one of the elite schools in the U.S., recently ranked #28 among all universities nationally - just ahead of North Carolina. Nothing else in the Triad is in the academic or athletic league of Wake Forest.

Salem College in Winston-Salem is the oldest educational institution for women in the U.S. and is one of the nation's most distinguished private liberal arts colleges, ahead of both Guilford and Greensboro Colleges.

I'm not aware of anything located in Greensboro that can even compare with the UNC-School of the Arts, a very highly regarded arts university.

Winston-Salem State is ranked #12 in the nation among HBCUs, while N.C. A&T is #15 and Bennett is #21.

Looks like Winston-Salem higher education is a little superior...apparently you didn't concentrate hard enough on Winston-Salem's urban systems.

Originally Posted by cohaagen

Primary and secondary education - no contest. Forsyth County schools are abysmal. Guilford/Greensboro has several of the nation's best schools, but Forsyth has none - public or private - worth mentioning.

I'm not a social scientist, but I am a teacher...so I understand that one school system is not "better" than another. There may be individual schools within a system that are excellent, but within any system there are good schools and schools that need improvement. There are some excellent high schools in W-S/Forsyth County, including R.J. Reynolds (#265), West Forsyth (#356), Mt. Tabor (#185)...(ranking out of 1300 U.S. schools). Greensboro Grimsley is ranked #84, and there are number of ranked Guilford County schools - 2 100s-200s and the rest below 400. Both are decent systems, with neither being above the other.

Winston-Salem is the clear leader in private schools:
1. Forsyth Country Day - elite college preparatory school
2. Bishop-McGuinness Catholic - ranked as one of the top 50 Catholic schools in the nation
3. Salem Academy - elite all-girls boarding school associated with Salem College, founded in 1772. 100% of graduates go on to college.
4. Calvary Baptist Day School - largest Christian school in the Triad
5. Summit School - nationally recognized for excellence in academics

Originally Posted by cohaagen

Big one - TRAFFIC - Compared to comparably sized (150k-400k) cities, Greensboro has none. Planners have dropped the ball over the past 15 years, allowing a bit too much congestion to arise, but it's generally better than any other US city of this size. Winston, on the other hand... My God! It doesn't matter the time of day or part of town, this town's transportation network was quite poorly designed. It takes forever to get anywhere, and the city is so overbounded spatially (there are huge expanses of empty space within the city limits).

Greensboro and Winston-Salem are almost exactly the same size in area...126 sq.mi. and 129 sq.mi. Where exactly do you find any vast empty space in either city?

Both cities have about the same medium-sized city traffic volume - which is practically nothing.

Winston-Salem...Top 10 Most Liveable Cities in the Nation America's Most Livable Communities - Winston-Salem - City Home

Originally Posted by cohaagen

My personal choice, were personal feelings all that impacted such a decision, would be Greensboro. It's currently a preferable atmosphere and shows the greatest promise for the future.

For YOU, possibly...most anyone who has experienced both cities chooses Winston-Salem as the Triad city of the future because of it's urban setting, arts culture, and diverse economy/corporate HQs.

One thing I noticed...for a "scientist" you seem to state A LOT of opinions with nothing to back them up.

[SC122]

Well-said,DeaconJ.I love my city
My kids are doing/did great in school,and my daughter is now a freshman at ASU,her first step to becoming a pharmacist.What else could I ask for? Many thanks to the public WSFCS system,and the teachers and other staff here that helped make that possible for her.

[adavi215]

I am quite aware that the Triad has no main city. But that is the beauty of discussions like this. Each one is entitled to their own opinion and for various reasons. I personally believe that Winston is the future of the Triad moreso than Greensboro but I do not live in the area so I could be way wrong. But I do want to suppose the question based on economic potential which city has more promise? Winston actually has a larger urban area of over 300,000 while Greensboro is around 270,000. However, Greensboro has a higher GDP than Winston. Just some information to steer the direction of the topic. If anyone has any more information please drop it on.

[DeaconJ]

Originally Posted by adavi215

I agree with you that Greensboro is a nice city. When I was at Norfolk State U, some friends of mine have said that Greensboro was more lively than Charlotte, this was almost 10 years ago. So I am actually surprised to hear of G'boro having a relatively stagnant night life especially considering all of the colleges in the area. I do LOVE Winston-Salem and it is a toss up between it and Raleigh if I were to leave the most wonderful city of Charlotte. But I do question the economic activity of the Triad as a whole and wonder if W-S can be the next big urban thing in NC and recapture its legacy as THE city of NC. I know it will never catch up to Charlotte but can it give Raleigh a run for the money?

While I do think that the W-S economy is healthy for a city that has lost SO much in the way of coporate headquarters (Wachovia, Piedmont Airlines, etc.), but I don't see the city moving ahead of Raleigh simply because it is the capital of N.C., has RTP, and has N.C. State University - the largest university in N.C. - practically downtown.

I do see W-S becoming more prominent among N.C. cities in the near future due to:

1. Large number of corporate headquarters - R.J. Reynolds, Hanes, Krispy Kreme, BB&T, GMAC Insurance, ISP Sports, T.W. Garner/Texas Pete, Blue Rhino, Lowes Foods, and Womble Carlyle Sandridge & Rice (the largest law firm in N.C. and in the Southeast)

2. Large corporate division offices - Sara Lee Branded Apparel Division, Wachovia Wealth Management Division, Dell Assembly, U.S. Airways Reservations and Dividend Miles Centers, etc.

3. Health Care and Biotech/Medical Research - N.C. Baptist Medical Center (one of the premier facilities in N.C. and the U.S.) along with Wake Forest University School of Medicine (one of the top medical schools in the U.S.) and Brenner Children's Hospital.

Forsyth Medical Center...with 1900 beds, is one of the largest in N.C.

Piedmont Triad Research Park...focusing on life sciences and information technology R&D, in conjunction with all of the local colleges/universities.

4. The Winston-Salem Arts Community - Reynolda House MOMA, one of the best collections of American paintings in the U.S.; Southeastern Center for Contemporary Art; MESDA; UNC-School of the Arts; the Stevens Center for Performing Arts; Reynolds Auditorium; the Arts Council Theater; Old Salem; Bethabra Park; Sawtooth Center for Visual Art; Delta Fine Arts Center; WFU Museum of Anthropology; Scales Fine Arts Center; the Downtown Arts District; the Fiddle and Bow Society; Cinema Society; Piedmont Opera; Winston-Salem Symphony; Piedmont Blues Preservation Society; Little Theater of W-S; Associated Artists of W-S; the National Black Theater Festival; the N.C. Wine Celebration; RiverRun International Film Festival; Music in the Streets at Winston Square; Films on Fourth; Rock the Block; etc...and Tanglewood Park, The Dixie Classic Fair, Salem Lake, the W-S Entertainment and Sports Complex, etc.

[cohaagen]

Originally Posted by DeaconJ

Wake Forest is likely the best school in the Triad??? Wake Forest is one of the elite schools in the U.S., recently ranked #28 among all universities nationally - just ahead of North Carolina. Nothing else in the Triad is in the academic or athletic league of Wake Forest.

I was understating. Sorry if the sarcasm went over your head. Next time I'll use emoticons.

Salem College in Winston-Salem is the oldest educational institution for women in the U.S. and is one of the nation's most distinguished private liberal arts colleges, ahead of both Guilford and Greensboro Colleges.

Salem College is notable primarily for its history, and in academic circles is typically noted for its position among non-coed schools. My omission wasn't meant to downplay it.

I'm not aware of anything located in Greensboro that can even compare with the UNC-School of the Arts, a very highly regarded arts university.

Not sure how I forgot about SOTA. My bad... it is an exceptional school for its focus. I was in a hurry.

Winston-Salem State is ranked #12 in the nation among HBCUs, while N.C. A&T is #15 and Bennett is #21.

Careful when blindly accepting rankings by magazines and individual groups. WSSU may still top A&T in rankings of HBCUs, but A&T has moved beyond being a "black" school. It is one of the best schools in the nation for technical studies such as engineering.

Looks like Winston-Salem higher education is a little superior...apparently you didn't concentrate hard enough on Winston-Salem's urban systems.

I'm not a social scientist, but I am a teacher...so I understand that one school system is not "better" than another. There may be individual schools within a system that are excellent, but within any system there are good schools and schools that need improvement. There are some excellent high schools in W-S/Forsyth County, including R.J. Reynolds (#265), West Forsyth (#356), Mt. Tabor (#185)...(ranking out of 1300 U.S. schools). Greensboro Grimsley is ranked #84, and there are number of ranked Guilford County schools - 2 100s-200s and the rest below 400. Both are decent systems, with neither being above the other.

Where do you rankings come from? Citations, please, since you disregard my opinions (which are based on years of research of this state's urban areas, as well as the more important fact that I've lived here for most of my life). This almost sounds as if you're using US News' rankings, which have been disregarded as fluff for years. Many such rankings base the lists on nothing more than test scores and AP/IB availability. You need to look closely at individual school performance. There are many statistics therein, and I know personally that such research takes a lot of time and effort, but it yields much more reliable results.

Winston-Salem is the clear leader in private schools:
1. Forsyth Country Day - elite college preparatory school
2. Bishop-McGuinness Catholic - ranked as one of the top 50 Catholic schools in the nation
3. Salem Academy - elite all-girls boarding school associated with Salem College, founded in 1772. 100% of graduates go on to college.
4. Calvary Baptist Day School - largest Christian school in the Triad
5. Summit School - nationally recognized for excellence in academics


Again with the rankings? As I stated before, you need to research individual schools to really get an idea about educational performance stats. Exorbitant tuition and pretty brochures do not an excellent school make. My omission of B-McG wasn't intentional. Good school. FCD is frequently equated with schools like Guilford Day, where, unlike B-McG, Greensboro Day, Caldwell, etc, where an elite education is offered, admission is often a sign of failure of a student to "cut it" in public schools, due to behavioral or academic issues.


Greensboro and Winston-Salem are almost exactly the same size in area...126 sq.mi. and 129 sq.mi. Where exactly do you find any vast empty space in either city?

I'm a geographer. Do like me and look at a map, if simply driving around isn't sufficient proof. Heck, just open Google maps and turn on the satellite imagery and compare the two areas. Similar areal size, yet Greensboro has a larger population by nearly 50,000. W-S has annexed huge swathes of rural land over the years, and that land is still undeveloped. Greensboro has some such areas, but nowhere near as much.

Both cities have about the same medium-sized city traffic volume - which is practically nothing.

Again, this is based on... what? Comparing just Census data is insufficient here. G'boro has a mean daily work commute time of 19.7 minutes and W-S is at 19.9, but that doesn't tell the whole story. In college, I performed several traffic studies for the region. When we look merely at travel times associated with intra-urban commutes, the differences are staggering. To get anywhere in G'boro, one may take any number of roads, either circumferential boulevards or straight, direct routes, and either will take very little time. To get around W-S requires planning. Taking neighborhood cut-through roads is often impossible. What time is it? Where am I now and where am I going? And just wait until the Bus. 40 construction begins. If you thought the interminable I-40 construction in G'boro was bad, hoo boy.

Winston-Salem...Top 10 Most Liveable Cities in the Nation America's Most Livable Communities - Winston-Salem - City Home

Yeah, and both Goldsboro and Wilson have been ranked on Money Magazine's top communities lists. Again, be careful with your blind faith of rankings. There are hundreds of these lists out there. Some are by trustworthy sources and others not so much (your reference here is reliable, but keep in mind that each agency and non-profit has different measures as well as ways to measure those same phenomena). If memory serves, every community of the Triad region has been on at least one of this type of list. You really think High Point or Lexington or Thomasville belong on such lists? Well, High Point is the home of an American Idol, so it must be awesome! (I just died a little inside)

For YOU, possibly...most anyone who has experienced both cities chooses Winston-Salem as the Triad city of the future because of it's urban setting, arts culture, and diverse economy/corporate HQs.

Now who's throwing about opinions?
"most anyone" ???
Not likely.
I'm not bashing Winston. Every city here has quite an impressive history. I'm actually doing research on Greensboro's "hidden" history for a book. If you think I'm tough on W-S, you have no idea. Greensboro has one hell of a shady past regarding political corruption. Political bumbling is what prevented this region from staying ahead of Raleigh and Charlotte in the last century. Do you realize how important the Triad was 100 years ago, especially in comparison to other cities in NC? Other dark pages from G'boro's past - I assume that you know the story of how one of our community's most notable 20th-Century figures very likely had his equally notable father-in-law killed and made it look like an accident. And the legendary tales of Rick Flair and the boys of the coliseum? Classic 60s/70s drug & violence lore! Every city has its pros and cons, ups and downs, dark and light. It's not always pretty but makes for great history.
I look at research and empirical evidence. My opinions are based on both. I love this region and I love many things about each city in it.

One thing I noticed...for a "scientist" you seem to state A LOT of opinions with nothing to back them up.

As I said before, this is merely a forum thread and I was in a hurry. I don't think the OP was seeking a works cited list. Let's keep in mind that everyone's opinions are welcomed; the variety of opinions here are what readers will use to supplement their decisions.

[cohaagen]

Originally Posted by adavi215

I am quite aware that the Triad has no main city. But that is the beauty of discussions like this. Each one is entitled to their own opinion and for various reasons. I personally believe that Winston is the future of the Triad moreso than Greensboro but I do not live in the area so I could be way wrong. But I do want to suppose the question based on economic potential which city has more promise? Winston actually has a larger urban area of over 300,000 while Greensboro is around 270,000. However, Greensboro has a higher GDP than Winston. Just some information to steer the direction of the topic. If anyone has any more information please drop it on.

Your numbers are incorrect. Please re-check them. (it sounds as if you're using 2000 Census data. Remember that the Census poorly defines urbanized areas often, and if memory serves, the W-S Urbanized area included Clemmons, Lewisville, and Kernersville, whereas G'Boro's included G'boro, and parts of Pleasant Garden, Summerfield and Jamestown. Hardly equivalent measures).

[Elm&McGee]

burgerboi, I have no reason to bash Greensboro. I have lived here in the Southside Neighborhood and Elm Street area for the past 5 years. My observations are simply that Greensboro gets alot of press about their thriving downtown when in all reality it only thrives during college night and mostly friday and saturday when the bars and clubs are open. Come downtown on a Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and usually Thursday night and tell me it is thriving. People going to bars at 11 pm do not attribute to a thriving downtown and they rarely spend money in retail shops or eat at high end restaurants. With that said, Greensboro best bet is to focus on making dowtown a place of entertainment because presently they cannot get retail to work in this environment. I don't see downtown Greensboro's future as being one of a typical downtown urban center like some other NC cities have because there are no corporate headquarters downtown and very few office workers who can support a thriving downtown during typical monday through friday buiness hours alone. People will continue to want to live dowtown where their friends are and be near the party scene and alot of empty nesters enjoy walking to the restaurants. What has happen to Greensboro is the suburban malls, Friendly Centers, and lack of downtown office towers has overtime took away any chance for downtown to make a comeback to what it once was. I do agree that is has potential to become one of the major entertainment destinations in the state.

[cohaagen]

Originally Posted by DanielleNC

Oh wow, I didnt know that. Why is that? I don't know much about Winston-Salem (really have only been to Old Salem) and I would like to know more.

Thanks!

You probably didn't know this because it simply is not true, by any measure. I hope the poster will provide a source for this.