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I appreciate your passion mattee01 and understand some of your reasons for wanting to spend a half billion dollars on a highway to Anderson.
I'm still trying to figure out who this route will benefit for that kind of money outlay. I ran some scenarios of the cities you mentioned to major shopping districts in both Anderson and Greenville. I agree for some folks, it will shave off a few minutes and a few miles of driving. But is that worth the cost to the taxpayer?
Well tell me who does I-385 benefit? By that I mean between I-85 and downtown. Imagine for this experiment that I-385 did not extend past the other side of I-85 towards I-26.
If you're coming from south of Greenville, you can get to downtown quicker on I-185 or even Augusta Rd. If you're going to the hospital, same thing. If you're going to some of the good shopping areas, you can take Pleasantburg Dr and stay on it, or continue to Wade Hampton, or you can get off on Laurens Rd and this will take you to Haywood where the mall and other shopping is, or even to Woodruff Rd. As a matter of fact, there is nothing I-385 can take me to quicker and efficiently from the south side that there isn't already an I-85 exit for. Now, if you come from the north, then I can see a little more incentive to you...but guess what? If you take Pelham Rd, it has access to Haywood Rd and Pleasantburg Dr, plus from there you can go to downtown, Wade Hampton, or East North St.
Now consider something else, in the late 50s, early 60s, when this was all built, did this area have most of development it does now? No, the only thing that was there within that time period was the Greenville Downtown Airport...though if we were living in those times and you were using that as the sole basis for which the road would need construction, I would merely point out that commercial traffic transferred to the new Greenville-Spartanburg Airport.
So, now we have an area going from north of Anderson just to outside of downtown that is somewhat similar with the course of I-385, though longer, but very similar to what the area looked like for I-385 in the early 60's, and hopefully you see the same potential. A large part of the success of the 'golden strip' has been thanks to people coming from Spartanburg, Woodruff, Greer, Mauldin, Simpsonville, and elsewhere to feed into the shopping that has developed. What is to stop people from coming from Williamston (which would have a straight shot based on the route btw), possibly some from Easley, from Belton, Honea Path, Pelzer, West Pelzer, all over Anderson, Starr, Iva, etc to an area with more convient shopping? What would stop us from getting a 'Haywood Mall' or 'Mcalister Square' or any of the other countless shopping centers or developments that have sprung up through there? Instead of trying to find every reason it wouldn't work for us, ask yourself, 'has it been good for Greenville'? If so, why wouldn't it be good for us too?
In your reply, you quoted most of what I said, except for the part of that this state has dire needs of repairing the roads and bridges in this state, which over a quarter of are in serious shape.
Here is a recent article about people who travel I-85 between Spartanburg and Greenville. They want something done to end the congestion. Some are proposing a rapid transit system. Some probably want a bigger highway or new highway in another location. How should we appease them? And at what cost are we willing to pay for that?
I know traffic gets congested during rush hours...along the north side that is...though I also understand that majority of SC citizens don't quite understand congestion like some of our bigger neighbors (Charlotte and Atlanta do). To be quite honest, they should be thankful it's not much worse like it is in those bigger cities. When you live in a more rural urban area like that is though, it becomes a little more clear to an 'outside' perspective though.
I would say they don't need an enormously expensive light rail system like that article says. I'm hoping you are against that, because that would make my proposal, even if it came up with the highest possible check that you claimed look like the tip for dinner with that light rail being more compared with the price of the whole meal. I'd also say it'd likely get far less use considering SC has done very little to encourage or familiarize it's citizens with public transit, since the VAST majority commute and just regularly get around by car. If they want to start making changes now, then the first thing they could and should do is have an express bus route from between the transit center in downtown Greenville to downtown Spartanburg, and have it run about three or four times a day during the peak hours while also reducing the time between regular bus stops, increase operating times a little, and doing more to encourage ridership. Light rail is not going to get much better ridership if any, and is very in-efficent...especially for long range. If they were to consider any sort of rail option, it should be commuter rail (which is exactly what would be the primary use) and it would get people there faster...though I can't say cheaper either. They should also consider widening by another lane between Pelham Rd and I-385. That shouldn't be too difficult considering it sorta already goes in and out of four/three lanes.
I also already stated before that I know we have areas that need major work done on them, but we can't just completely sacrifice any new progress 'just' in the name of keeping all of the system going. The best solution all around would be to work on as many upgrading and repair projects as possible, have that as the main focus with at least 60% of the spending, but not ignore the increases of need in other areas. After all, more building and development leads to more tax money and more people, which results in more money to spend on the roads.
Anderson can use an interstate spur to service Pelzer, Williamston, Belton, Honea Path, and southern Anderson County. If the routing is to be named, go for I-785. (I-985 is used 80 miles down the road in Georgia.)
As for exits, Cox Road and Rodgers Road do not need exits. It is best to funnel that traffic into major roads.
I thought about that...the name and numbering isn't really so important at this point as the road itself and fixing any quirks in it or whatever.
Now I can agree on the whole Rodgers Road thing, I did after all say it was optional so that traffic could easily just take Easley Hwy. When the bridge and on/off ramps were being reworked, I say they'd need to go ahead and at least improve Easley hwy from around this exit to or towards I-85 to two lanes with turn lanes, as traffic is usually so consistant that people trying to turn have a hard time doing so. If more needed to be done than that I'd be on board as well, the addition of this route could turn this road into something similar of Woodruff Rd over the course of a decade or two...or even less potentially.
As for Cox Rd, that exit is necessary for at least two main reasons. Number 1, you don't want to have to go for too long without an exit on any freeway, but this is even more important on a spur/bypass/beltway. Considering that this would be the first exit for almost three miles coming from the city, that makes it necessary. Number 2, it has good connections that should allow people to come and go from this way (they should look at this same concept on our own stetch of I-85). People could get off here and get to Forest Lawn, cross over to US 29 if they are closer to their destination there, Cobbs Glen Country Club, Old Williamston Rd, and it connects with Crestview Rd which goes straight to 81. Disconnecting the route from this road would decrease its appeal to a good amount of people, and when you have a road like this, you want it to be as appealing as possible to people.
I think this would be rather expensive considering the area, but I would love to see something for our area and agree that it could be good for transportation and new development both.
Your biggest opponents though I do believe are going to be locals and some within our local government who would like to see our area remain rural. I can already understand a good many in Greenville wouldn't see the use in the road, because they probably are mostly concerned with what they have or what they could get, but our locals will take that and anything else they can to keep jobs in Greenville and out of Anderson.
If you can recall, that's what hurt Anderson so bad in the first place, that we tried to be a bedroom community, and then our house prices collapsed and construction workers got laid off. Seems like with our county council, they still haven't gotten it and don't want to change.
Ugh....that's probably true. Plus someone told me there was an article today that filing for candidates ends this Friday, but all seven have applied for re-election and only two of those have people running against them. At least the one in my district has two going against him so at least I a choice for my local area. The big problem ones though don't have opponents (Francis Crowder and Cindy Wilson).
I believe if there was enough support for the road though, not even they could stop it...federal/state authority + public support against local authority would hopefully win the day. They already do too much to stunt growth here as is. Last thing we need is for the potential to come here again, just for us to lose it...and of course, it would go to Greenville...
Ugh....that's probably true. Plus someone told me there was an article today that filing for candidates ends this Friday, but all seven have applied for re-election and only two of those have people running against them. At least the one in my district has two going against him so at least I a choice for my local area. The big problem ones though don't have opponents (Francis Crowder and Cindy Wilson).
I believe if there was enough support for the road though, not even they could stop it...federal/state authority + public support against local authority would hopefully win the day. They already do too much to stunt growth here as is. Last thing we need is for the potential to come here again, just for us to lose it...and of course, it would go to Greenville...
Yes I know how it is. I personally would support your road though, just not as an interstate just yet. I believe it could be upgraded to a controlled-access road without necessarily all the interstate grade requirements and still get the intention done, but at a lower cost. Greenville outweighs Anderson on re-paving and some widening issues, but Anderson outweighs Greenville on need for jobs and development, and also when it comes to a completely new freeway like road. Keep working.
I appreciate your passion mattee01 and understand some of your reasons for wanting to spend a half billion dollars on a highway to Anderson.
I'm still trying to figure out who this route will benefit for that kind of money outlay. I ran some scenarios of the cities you mentioned to major shopping districts in both Anderson and Greenville. I agree for some folks, it will shave off a few minutes and a few miles of driving. But is that worth the cost to the taxpayer?
In your reply, you quoted most of what I said, except for the part of that this state has dire needs of repairing the roads and bridges in this state, which over a quarter of are in serious shape.
Here is a recent article about people who travel I-85 between Spartanburg and Greenville. They want something done to end the congestion. Some are proposing a rapid transit system. Some probably want a bigger highway or new highway in another location. How should we appease them? And at what cost are we willing to pay for that?
Where are you getting the figures for half a billion dollars? Maybe if I had some idea where you were comparing rates from I could be a bit more accurate, but when I looked over the 14 miles that's included, I think 300 million, about 200 short of what you said, would probably be a more likely estimate in 2012...500 mil to me seems like if you're talking about 20-30 years from now or more compared with inflation. I wont argue with that, especially considering if the OP did get approval on this, it might take something close to that length to get it started.
Where are you getting the figures for half a billion dollars? Maybe if I had some idea where you were comparing rates from I could be a bit more accurate, but when I looked over the 14 miles that's included, I think 300 million, about 200 short of what you said, would probably be a more likely estimate in 2012...500 mil to me seems like if you're talking about 20-30 years from now or more compared with inflation. I wont argue with that, especially considering if the OP did get approval on this, it might take something close to that length to get it started.
I got the figure for the estimated cost of building I-73.
The current I-385 project costs $65 million. That's adding one lane in each direction, plus repaving with concrete for 5 miles. The estimated cost to rebuild the just I-85/385 interchange is a staggering $285 million (in 2010 dollars). Those two projects alone are $350 million dollars.
Now you want to build a 14 mile concrete highway with 9-10 exits. Half the highway has to be built on land that has not been purchased.
The way you are fudging those numbers...you must be a politician...aren't ya??
I got the figure for the estimated cost of building I-73.
The current I-385 project costs $65 million. That's adding one lane in each direction, plus repaving with concrete for 5 miles. The estimated cost to rebuild the just I-85/385 interchange is a staggering $285 million (in 2010 dollars). Those two projects alone are $350 million dollars.
Now you want to build a 14 mile concrete highway with 9-10 exits. Half the highway has to be built on land that has not been purchased.
The way you are fudging those numbers...you must be a politician...aren't ya??
Don't be rude now...
I can see where both of you were coming from, but I kinda side a little bit more with upstate. When you talk about almost half of the route that goes from 85 to Old Willamston Rd, you only have about 3-4 miles that would need to be divided with a lane added to either side. As far as the exits for Easley Hwy and Anderson Hwy, those are already in place and don't have to be built, though might need 'some' small improvements...possibly. That means those would 3-4 miles would need the most, while the rest wouldn't need very much and would probably be about 100 mil roughly.
For the remainder, that is more ambigious and would require completely new building, but if you build over the next 7 miles at a rate of 12 mil per mile, that equals 84 million...which would still leave over 100 mil for the whole route for any additional expenses and improvements before it reaches her proposal of 300 million.
Now I don't want to be rude either, but why would you mention the tremdous cost to upgrade that intersection? That's a much different case then this road as you're dealing with the joining of two interstates that continue going either way, plus a five lane highway, all of which are some of the most major roads in the upstate. Plus being spread out the way it is, with everything the way it's designed there...you just can't compare that to any other road...a similar interchange maybe, but not this...it's just simply more complex.
Oh...and speaking of I-385 and what I'd say before, you never responded to my question about that...
Now, I do appreciate your input on this, it just doesn't seem like you've completely thought it out, especially from the aspects of probable costs and utilization, that's all. I don't want you to feel offended, but just understand where I'm coming from, I can't speak for the other poster. Now, if you'd be willing I'd like you to go back to what I'd said about I-385 and the time it was built and see if you still feel the same way.
Well tell me who does I-385 benefit? By that I mean between I-85 and downtown. Imagine for this experiment that I-385 did not extend past the other side of I-85 towards I-26.
Instead of trying to find every reason it wouldn't work for us, ask yourself, 'has it been good for Greenville'? If so, why wouldn't it be good for us too?
First of all this is not the 1960's anymore. If I-385 was proposed today, I'm sure it would be shot down. There is just no money. I don't understand why people cannot comprehend that.
SCDOT Total Revenue 2010 - 2011 (in Millions)
Motor Fuel User Fees - 445.0
Interest - 7.0
Toll Revenues - 8.0
Maintenance Trust Fund - 50.6
Misc. (Permits, Sale of Property & other) - 50.7
Interagency Transfers - 2.8
CTC Donor County Transfer/SIB Transfer - (12.3)
Debt Service - (63.9)
Total State Revenues - 487.9
Federal Reimbursement Revenues - 655.5
Total Estimated Revenues - 1143.4 Million
That year, SCDOT's operating budget was just 6 million shy of what it took in. Or 1.137 Billion. Most of that money was spent on maintenance.
We would have to significantly raise taxes on gasoline to pay for any new major projects...since you don't want this to be a toll road. Which is curious to me since this interstate really only helps local people.
The interstate would be good for the folks who live in and around Anderson. There are so many projects that are needed across this country that will help people, but will never get off the drawing board because we have spent way too much money.
I just read a story that Senator Reid is backing a bullet train that starts 100 miles from Los Angeles in the desert and ends in Las Vegas. The company wants something like a $2.5B taxpayer funded loan to get started. Unbelievable!
The US National Debt is almost $16 Trillion dollars with slightly over $2T in revenue. In five years it's estimated to be $21T.
Now if you want to talk toll road again, get some bonds and pray this doesn't turn out to be like I-185. Don't forget to convince the environmentalists of the reason you want to destroy farm land and Lord knows what else down in Anderson to build this.
First of all this is not the 1960's anymore. If I-385 was proposed today, I'm sure it would be shot down. There is just no money. I don't understand why people cannot comprehend that.
SCDOT Total Revenue 2010 - 2011 (in Millions)
Motor Fuel User Fees - 445.0
Interest - 7.0
Toll Revenues - 8.0
Maintenance Trust Fund - 50.6
Misc. (Permits, Sale of Property & other) - 50.7
Interagency Transfers - 2.8
CTC Donor County Transfer/SIB Transfer - (12.3)
Debt Service - (63.9)
Total State Revenues - 487.9
Federal Reimbursement Revenues - 655.5
Total Estimated Revenues - 1143.4 Million
That year, SCDOT's operating budget was just 6 million shy of what it took in. Or 1.137 Billion. Most of that money was spent on maintenance.
We would have to significantly raise taxes on gasoline to pay for any new major projects...since you don't want this to be a toll road. Which is curious to me since this interstate really only helps local people.
The interstate would be good for the folks who live in and around Anderson. There are so many projects that are needed across this country that will help people, but will never get off the drawing board because we have spent way too much money.
I just read a story that Senator Reid is backing a bullet train that starts 100 miles from Los Angeles in the desert and ends in Las Vegas. The company wants something like a $2.5B taxpayer funded loan to get started. Unbelievable!
The US National Debt is almost $16 Trillion dollars with slightly over $2T in revenue. In five years it's estimated to be $21T.
Now if you want to talk toll road again, get some bonds and pray this doesn't turn out to be like I-185. Don't forget to convince the environmentalists of the reason you want to destroy farm land and Lord knows what else down in Anderson to build this.
Ok, so what you're telling me now is that you would rather lose everything that has developed along all of 385, including some of the things that have come to Greenville because of costs, yes? This means you'd be okay with no Mcalister Square, no Haywood Mall, non-existance for a lot of the development along Woodruff Rd, if any, no Clemson University Research Park, maybe half or more of the development through there gone, a downtown that struggles a bit more to get development...
They call it the 'Golden Strip' for a reason...when Greenville got 385, it basically put the place on the map for a lot of things. It made the city what it is today. Without it, you'd probably be looking at a 'slightly bigger' Anderson.
The reason I said no toll road is because that's basically what killed off I-185 these days. Yes I realize the area will mostly help 'locals', but that's the cause with any spur route. I-385 from I-85 to downtown mostly helps locals or those from Spartanburg, but, just like my road, isn't it's only use. It is meant to attract more businesses and make it more desirable for more distant areas to come here. We have cities that are not necessarily 'local', but about halfway between here and Greenville...if we don't have what it takes to attract them here, we lose money and Greenville gets it instead.
Btw, it seems like you haven't studied the land. This is not farm land at all, and will never be used for it. The areas that aren't woods that haven't been touched by development on either side is some occasional housing along one of the even less occasional roads going between 29 and Old Williamston Rd.
Oh, and if you wouldn't mind, if you have a report of how much they got in revenue, could you also please post how much they spent out too. I'd be a little more interested in seeing that.
Anyway, this sounds like you being overly conservative about this. I realize our governments status, but as being moderate on issues like this has taught me, you can have just as many or more problems by being too conservative as by being too liberal. It's just as wrong to build a large light rail system all over an area that has no need and great roads as declining to widen a section of highway that is highly dangerous and overcrowed because of money.
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