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Ok, I'm certainly not looking to fight here but I just have to challenge some of you who have moved to G'vl or are thinking of it. I am one that believes Greenville is perhaps one of the most amazing cities on the planet. But folks, the phenomenal growth & quality of life can not possibly keep up forever. Somewhere down the road, maybe not in this generation or the next but the city will increase to the size of Miami or Detroit. It is entirely possible. Once crime & drugs sweeps across the upstate and the casinos are built in the shadows of Paris Mt., the huge amusement park is built off hwy 25, the upscale gentleman’s club is put in Simpsonville the taxes and cost of housing will shoot through the roof. Soon after, people will leave, companies will leave and the once perfect place will be the new rust belt. the devil is in the details but this is the way these huge growth cities go and most of you who are having those "certain" dreams about Greenville will be the first to cut & run. How do I know? because many of you are the same ones who have cut & run 1, 2 & 3 other times just in your own lifetime. New York grew out of control so you raced off to FL and now that place is shot so you come to Greenville and the beat goes on and its off to the next gold rush city.
I sort of admire those who choose to move to someplace like Upstate NY. They go there in spite of some of the highest taxes and worst economy in the country. And you can make it there, if that is what you REALLY want.
Look long & hard at what you really want and if what I described above turns you off than you might reconsider. If that is your language than more power to ya, go for it.
I spoke to this in another thread, but I'll reply here as well. For many people (like us) it becomes a matter of economics. In the last 10 years, real estate and taxes have tripled here in FL. Homeowners insurance has gone up 400% in 3 years! At the same time, our income is only slightly higher than it was 10 years ago. Something has to give! My mother is retired in CT, but has to sell her home (which is paid for) and move somewhere else at the age of 81, b/c she simple can't afford to live where she has spent her entire life. Ask here how she feels about it! It is a problem all across America, caused by the disappearance of the middle class. We are becoming (going back to, actually) a 2 class society of the haves and the have-nots. And it's the 'haves' that are driving run-away development and resulting higher costs. I am a tool maker, once a proud occupation, and I've had to sit back and watch the jobs fly off to China, while the fat cats who oversee the businesses make obscene salaries. I read recently where the top 20 CEO's average more income in 10 MINUTES what their workers make in a year! In this country! I have to work near a city- that's where the jobs are. I can no longer afford my native CT. I can no longer afford FL. If that's what you call 'cut & run' than I'm guilty as charged. I also don't have a choice!
I hear what you're saying. I've seen it here in FL over the last 27 years. But I didn't raises the taxes, I didn't raise the real estate prices, I didn't raise the insurance rates. I actually make less now than I did 10 years ago, b/c the better paying companies have gone overseas, leaving me to work for a struggling company that pays shirt buttons, and has virtually no benefits. I'm 54 years old, have almost nothing set aside for retirement, and have no pension (do they still have those?) I haven't seen a job listing for my trade in this area in months. Sorry, but I have no choice but to move to an affordable area. We are going to build a very modest house out in the country. Our land will stay undisturbed, so at least I'm preventing 15 mcmansions from being built! And if costs escalate out of control when we are retired (if that's even possible for us), then, guess what? We'll have to move. This is a good subject for debate, and I agree with you as much as disagree with you. Personally, I think this country has had its day, and our empire is already in decline. This is just one of many symptoms I see every day.
I agree 100% being a native Floridian and being driven out of the state I loved and stuck it out with through countless growth booms and economic crises. Now it has finally reached the breaking point.
When a city's decline starts to personally affect you to the point that you can no longer afford to remain you have no choice but to seek relief, or drown in ever skyrocketing expenses, forsaking everything to stay somewhere you're not welcomed.
Florida is seeing an exodus of middle class people because, as was said very eloquently by flgargoyle, it is becoming a world divided down the middle, with the middle being systematically squeezed out.
We are a blue collar family and don't have the money to continue living here with any quality of life. We have to pay about 45% of our net income to support a house and all its associated costs, that have risen out of control and without a thought for how we will pay. There's no money left over for fun, in a state that has fun to offer but at exorbitant prices. A baseball game costs $100 for us, so we can only go to one game per season. That's partly because the stadium blocks off the fishtank seats when we can attend games and forces us to buy the more expensive seats. Parking is $10 and a few snacks would bring it up another $30.
That's just one example. We've found ways to enjoy what's free or low cost, such as the beach, but it's quite limiting.
We don't plan to be fair weather friends to G'ville, but if it too becomes corrupt and taken over by greedy developers, greedy local governments, greedy tax collectors and the like then yes, we will move again to someplace that we may live the kind of life we feel we deserve.
Many in FL LOVE what we see as its death, as evidenced in the popularity of the casinos and amusement parks. I can't speak from knowledge of gentleman's clubs, but they do abound too, along with porno shops, fetish clothing stores with raunchy window displays in full view of my small children, etc. We have all the sad side effects here now that when I grew up, we had none of.
I do believe that uncontrolled growth is a curse to society and particulary, families. I sincerely hope G'ville doesn't go that way. But it doesn't happen by osmosis or while the city is unattended like a party the teenagers have when the folks are away, so if the powers that be *choose* to take it that way we'll have to pull up stakes.
So if you are a native from Greenville or longtime residnet and lik how things are now, be prepared to do what you can to make sure it isn't taken away from you. We will do our part when we're there but as has happened in my once-wonderful Florida, it may get completely away from you. Sad but true, when the wrong kind of people get behind the wheel.
Ok, I'm certainly not looking to fight here but I just have to challenge some of you who have moved to G'vl or are thinking of it. I am one that believes Greenville is perhaps one of the most amazing cities on the planet. But folks, the phenomenal growth & quality of life can not possibly keep up forever. Somewhere down the road, maybe not in this generation or the next but the city will increase to the size of Miami or Detroit. It is entirely possible. Once crime & drugs sweeps across the upstate and the casinos are built in the shadows of Paris Mt., the huge amusement park is built off hwy 25, the upscale gentleman’s club is put in Simpsonville the taxes and cost of housing will shoot through the roof. Soon after, people will leave, companies will leave and the once perfect place will be the new rust belt. the devil is in the details but this is the way these huge growth cities go and most of you who are having those "certain" dreams about Greenville will be the first to cut & run. How do I know? because many of you are the same ones who have cut & run 1, 2 & 3 other times just in your own lifetime. New York grew out of control so you raced off to FL and now that place is shot so you come to Greenville and the beat goes on and its off to the next gold rush city.
I sort of admire those who choose to move to someplace like Upstate NY. They go there in spite of some of the highest taxes and worst economy in the country. And you can make it there, if that is what you REALLY want.
Look long & hard at what you really want and if what I described above turns you off than you might reconsider. If that is your language than more power to ya, go for it.
Hi Average, just curious, where in NY did you originally come from? Did you move to Fl and then to Greenville? You know, it is ironic to me that you started this thread. I am originally from Long Island, NY (please spare the comments), and moved to Fl nine years ago. Not because NY was too crowded, too this and too that, I just had it in my head that Fl was going to be the end all be all. I did no research at all and figured it would be just like living any other place only without a change of seasons. Boy was I wrong. Anyway, I am not looking to flee Fl for all of the usual reasons. Actually I live in a very nice little city just south of Daytona Beach, Port Orange. It is very well run, very well planned and a nice place to live. So, why do I want to leave? No one is throwing me out, I am not leaving because of taxes and insurance, I can't take the heat, really miss the change of seasons, and am tired of the severe storms, or threat of and not being able to make a decent living. Not to mention that last Thursday I rescued my neighbors dog from getting eaten by a six foot aligator in my yard ! In my heart of hearts I would love to move back to Long Island but unfortunately I haven't won the lottery yet ! I am doing as much research on the Greenville area as I can. This past weekend I was up there for the fourth time. Although I get it as far as the beauty, the cultural events, etc, I was left with a feeling of uncertantity. I see what is happening as far as development and sprawl and it concerns me. Even though Woodruff Road has everything you can possibly imagine in the way of shopping, the traffic is a bit of a nightmare. When you start taking different exits off of the major roads to search for subdivisions and see that mostly all of them have been pretty much clear cut and the lots are very tight, that is very disturbing. It makes me wonder how much planning is being put into place? I really don't want to move to a place that will explode with uncontrolled growth, crime, etc., only to have to move again. I thought that I had found "the" place, but now I am not sure. As far as blaming people from other specific states for "ruining" another state - I am over hearing about that. People just don't like change period. Change is happening all over this country and people are looking for other place to live. You know if the land owners who owned their land for a zillion years weren't so tempted to sell their land to the developers for big bucks maybe that would put a stop to some of the over development. Maybe the towns/cities should buy up some of the land to put the brakes on areas being over developed. Anyway we can go on and on about this to no end. It would really be a shame if the beautiful area of Greenville was ruined by urban sprawl. If I decide to make it my new home I certainly will do my best to be a good citizen and contribute to the positive things that will keep Greenville great !
Ok, I'm certainly not looking to fight here but I just have to challenge some of you who have moved to G'vl or are thinking of it. I am one that believes Greenville is perhaps one of the most amazing cities on the planet. But folks, the phenomenal growth & quality of life can not possibly keep up forever. Somewhere down the road, maybe not in this generation or the next but the city will increase to the size of Miami or Detroit. It is entirely possible. Once crime & drugs sweeps across the upstate and the casinos are built in the shadows of Paris Mt., the huge amusement park is built off hwy 25, the upscale gentleman’s club is put in Simpsonville the taxes and cost of housing will shoot through the roof. Soon after, people will leave, companies will leave and the once perfect place will be the new rust belt.
If this is not the future you want, BE the change you want to happen. Don't live in fear. Don't buy your house in a new development. Get involved with your local politics and discourage (and do not reelect) local officials who cozy up with developers in the form of incentives and huge tax breaks just so you can pay the taxes when you shop. Your taxes go up because the developments get put in first, then the infrastructure to sustain these developments has be paid for later - by you, not the developer.
And stop going on and on about how wonderful this place is on public forums. Sssssshhhhh. People are listening.
Also, upscale gentlemens' clubs would be preferable to the low-rent ones that are there now, IMO. And what do you have against amusement parks? I LOVE roller-coasters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by averagenyjoe
the devil is in the details but this is the way these huge growth cities go and most of you who are having those "certain" dreams about Greenville will be the first to cut & run. How do I know? because many of you are the same ones who have cut & run 1, 2 & 3 other times just in your own lifetime.
Cut and run? Listen here, Fox News viewer, this a fluid and free society. Many (successful) people nowadays change careers and locations many times in their lives. It actually helps drive this economy. I have lived in several towns and cities, and a lot of people that live in these places want the place to be frozen and closed off to new people just after THEY get there. For example, I lived in Austin, TX during the 80's. So many people that had been there for awhile would talk about how great it used to be in the 60's and 70's. It had grown too much and become too expensive. Now I can talk to people that moved there when I did, and they talk about how great it was in the 80's. It has grown too much since then and become too expensive.
And BTW, if people keep moving to Greenville and DON'T leave, your above scenario (of Greenville turning into Detroit) becomes more likely. So which one do you want? People to come and stay forever (like you plan on doing) making Greenville the next big city? Or some people leaving (excuse me, cutting and running), perhaps allowing Greenville's growth to be more controlled? Because you have moved only once in your life, you are less of a transplant to Greenville than someone who has moved more? Will you become more, or less of a burden on Greenville as you age there?
Quote:
Originally Posted by averagenyjoe
New York grew out of control so you raced off to FL and now that place is shot so you come to Greenville and the beat goes on and its off to the next gold rush city.
I haven't lived in either NY or FL, but we are moving to Greenville next month not necessarily because of Greenville, but because of the job that is there. Don't get me wrong, I think we will love it in Greenville. I am just saying that there are many scenarios that bring newcomers to Greenville (or any other growing city). In order for this national economy to work and stay competitive internationally, people in the U.S. need to be willing to move. Believe me, I would love to be able to stay in one place for a long time. But the truth is, it is now very difficult to have a very successful career and stay at the same company forever. And changing companies often means changing cities.
I want to thank each of you for your kind response. With a thread like this I could have been stripped down and destroyed but you each chose to explain your situations in a decent manner. I didn’t sleep too well thinking maybe I was acting like an idiot here but I will explain just a bit more where I am coming from.
Let me first quote a piece of another thread that will help explain something: it was listed as 10 things to look for in a city.
quote - Je ne sais quoi
This is the intangible, the something-in-the-air that gives you a jolt of joy just to be living there. It's instinct and romance and whimsy and without it, even the place that looks perfect on paper will fall short. That's why a site visit to your potential cities is so important. Take a weekend and immerse yourself in the place. Drive around, get lost, eat out, ask questions. Choosing a new home is a bit like choosing a mate--you can't explain what you're looking for but you'll know it when you find it. end-quote
Ok, Greenville is becoming a heartbreak to me with its out of control growth. Many sections are a retail-hell. HOWEVER, overall, the above is just what Grenville does to me. I cant explain the love I have for it. I lived 23 yrs in the Charlotte area and 23 yrs outside Albany NY. (I am 46). That’s half my entire life in North/South. I have this love/hate relationship with both places. Anyone who know Upstate NY understands at least that half of the equation. I was all set to move from Charlotte to Greenville because of this love affair I have with the city. We used to visit there for a long weekend about 8 times/year. Dad died and I chose to return to Upstate NY to care for my mom. I will enjoy the time spent as long as I am up here but we are renting with almost NO hope of ever owning a home again. The cost of living, taxes and nanny state laws just suck all the life and hope out of a person. And our hope for Mr. Spitzer is fizzling away like passing gas. If it was as easy to live here as SC, I might consider throwing my anchor overboard and dying here. I will not forsake my mom in her needs but I just may return to Greenville one day and I am SO SCARED that by the time I get there it will be destroyed too. Just like Detroit or Miami. I understand being forced out by drugs, crime, taxes and more of the same. My wife's cousin was shot outside Miami in his own apartment minding his own business. they broke in to rob the place and found him there so they shot him. He lived to tell about it but hung on by a string.
I am not mad at any of you who have moved around a couple times. The several of you so far seem to be the type Greenville really needs. Plug in and help maintain the quality of life. I have NO desire to move around from place to place to tap the most money for myself, drink the milk & honey and screw the city on the way out. I don’t know what the answer is. I have only lived basically in 2 places and if Greenville doesn’t work out for the future I guess I'll just stay here and pray for the best. I am not the type that is motivated by money But somewhere a decent middle class hard working person has to have hope. I am sorry for any unkindness to any of you who only want a decent life too. I just fear for the city I believe is perhaps the most unique city I have EVER seen or heard of. There are those that flood a prosperous city strictly to carpetbag the goods then run. Thanks again for your kind responses.
I'll be moving to the area next summer. I live in Asheville now, and just got a much better job in Spartanburg. I'll be commuting til the school year is out and will move after that. It's going to be a long commute for a while (South Asheville to just N of Spartanburg), but it will be worth it in the long run for the factors of job stability, wages and much lower cost of living (especially home prices) than here in Asheville. My wife and I can't wait. We'll still be close to the mountains, which we love, yet have the financial opportunity that doesn't exist here in overpriced Asheville.
I haven't lived in either NY or FL, but we are moving to Greenville next month not necessarily because of Greenville, but because of the job that is there. Don't get me wrong, I think we will love it in Greenville. I am just saying that there are many scenarios that bring newcomers to Greenville (or any other growing city). In order for this national economy to work and stay competitive internationally, people in the U.S. need to be willing to move. Believe me, I would love to be able to stay in one place for a long time. But the truth is, it is now very difficult to have a very successful career and stay at the same company forever. And changing companies often means changing cities.
You make some very good points and there will always be transients to a city and in my own simple idealistic mind I cant change that fact.
I personally admire those that have stayed put for the long haul. They are the ones who built the city, they are the ones who put the sweat into it through thick & thin, they are usually the ones who are the philanthropist and community minded people and THEY are the ones who give a city the lasting personality and character it deserves.
On the other hand there are those like yourself that don’t care where they live, they are only interested in their own advancement and what is best for them alone. Of course you will like Greenville while you are there. You may even have some involvement but then when things don’t go your way or you find a better deal, you will up and move, showing no commitment to that dirty little word called "relationship". Business relationship, community relationship, etc. You will not be leaving because of crime, drugs, dangerous schools etc.. it will be to advance yourself. And that is fine but Someone has to be stable and hold the fort down so you can leave under those conditioins. My point is not to keep Greenville as small as Mayberry but rather in attitude. It is possible that Greenville can be a wonderful big city but it will take a much larger base of people that are committed to the area. And to join community watch groups, attend town meetings, and other local events.
Our communities should not be made up of disposable and autonomous peoples & lifestyles. People are not brick & mortar. Our reputations are what we develop in and among others. The relationships we build and what we invest in our communities. My point is we should do more searching for the communities that have a number of factors that match who we are and then connect and pull together through thick & thin. Good times & bad. And not just move on a whim. That doesn’t mean someone can never move in or leave a place but I think it can be argued that this constant moving around has caused as much harm as good. There are so many factors that come in to play for someone’s future and I admit that some have to move on but it should not be done flippantly and without a lot of consideration. Money & jobs do matter but are only a small part. My point is not so much about keeping Greenville like Mayberry, it is more about challenging those who bounce around with a "what’s in it for me" attitude. If more good people plugged in and got involved in community watch, town meetings etc. instead of chasing the dollar, all our cities would be better off and it would be possible for G'vl to sustain its growth while keeping quality of life.
By the way, I dont listen to Fox news, never have.
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Concerned & Confused
Thanks Skyliner
