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Old 12-28-2014, 12:41 PM
 
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Let's settle the resident issue.........I lived in upstate SC most of my life, longer than most folks I see posting on here. I still have RE interests and most of my family in the area. So, yes, I live in Charlotte......big deal, I have every right to post on here, especially if length of residence and ties to the area are a requirement. Why does it matter where folks live to post that roads in SC, not just Greenville, are terrible. Believe me, I am on SC roads a lot, especially in the upstate.

So, if anyone has questions, PM me, this is not an issue.

And, yes, part of the issue is tax especially considering the purchasing power of a dollar today compared with 25-30 years ago. When you see I85 falling apart between Greenville & Spartanburg, there is a problem. That road should not have craters or 30" walls separating north & south bound lanes. I am not sure why the state wants to re-build the 85/385 interchange when the money would be better spent elsewhere, there is no need for a Charlotte/Atlanta type interchange in Greenville, that is just for show.
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Old 12-28-2014, 06:59 PM
 
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385/85 interchange is about safety and flow, not constructing something to impress. You'll be happy to know that those short walls between 385 and Pelham would be a part of the fix.

IMO, The worst part of 85 is the 2 lanes north of Spartanburg. A portion of that will be widened soon I believe. Hopefully the state gets their ducks in a row soon...
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Old 12-30-2014, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
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There's only 2 questions that need to be answered in this debate:

1) Do we have tangible evidence that states with high taxes always have roads superior to SC?

2) Are the costs of those higher taxes worth it just to fix some pot holes and repave some back country roads? Keep in mind, there are costs that go beyond just paying higher taxes. If Greenville county would have raised its taxes on groceries, then people who live near the border of the county line will likely shop in other counties with lower taxes which would result in less business for our local grocery stores. If you want less of something, tax it.
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Old 12-30-2014, 10:52 PM
 
2,781 posts, read 3,257,699 times
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Originally Posted by gvillesc View Post
385/85 interchange is about safety and flow, not constructing something to impress. You'll be happy to know that those short walls between 385 and Pelham would be a part of the fix.

IMO, The worst part of 85 is the 2 lanes north of Spartanburg. A portion of that will be widened soon I believe. Hopefully the state gets their ducks in a row soon...
I know when you drive through the Gaffney area, they are slowly replacing overpasses with ones that can accommodate more lanes of traffic. The bridge over the Pacolet River will need to be completely replaced and that will be a major undertaking, particularly with the large chemical plant close to the interstate on the west side of the river. There is also a train trestle that crosses the interstate just west of the river that will need replacement. North of there, there is an old "Jersey" style interchange that needs to be replaced (around mile 83). Past Gaffney, I think the Broad River Bridge may already be wide enough but a couple of interchange overpasses may need to be replaced and there is a bridge over a rail crossing that is too narrow and will need replacement (it already lacks any real shoulder). I-85 should be 6 lanes through the entire state but it will be a huge, expensive project.

I-85 really has enough traffic in the corridor between LaGrange, GA and the end in Virginia for the entire length to be at least 6 lanes. I think NC finally finished widening the last stretch between Charlotte and Greensboro a couple of years ago with the last part being the bridge over the Yadkin River near Salisbury. That was a real mess before it was finished. Georgia still has a stretch between Braselton and the I-985 merge that is only 4 lanes but really needs to be more like 8 lanes. They are replacing overpasses along that stretch like we are doing in SC in preparation for widening the road. Driving into or out of Atlanta at anytime even remotely close to rush hour is a real pain along that section of roadway.

The current I-85 interchange with I-385 is dangerous in several spots. The crossover of traffic coming from I-85 N onto I-385 S and traffic exiting I-385 S onto Woodruff Road is probably the worst hazard. The flow of traffic from I-85 S onto I-385 S also crosses with traffic coming from I-385 N onto I-85 S, presenting a similar hazard with a high flow of traffic, particularly in the evening. I've seen a number of wrecks and near misses at that interchange because traffic crosses with no clear way to know who has the right of way. I don't know if we need the interchange they are building or if it is overkill but given the amount of work involved, it is probably a good idea to overbuild to prevent the need to do it again in the foreseeable future.

I-85 needs to be repaved through most of the section between Greenville and the Spartanburg "bypass" and then again from the end of that "bypass" and the state line. There are a lot of rough spots with patched potholes on top of patched potholes. I can only imagine the traffic snarl when they repave the 4 lane sections but it needs to be done.

Last edited by WhitewaterVol; 12-30-2014 at 11:21 PM..
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Old 12-30-2014, 11:20 PM
 
2,781 posts, read 3,257,699 times
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Originally Posted by Dan In SC View Post
There's only 2 questions that need to be answered in this debate:

1) Do we have tangible evidence that states with high taxes always have roads superior to SC?

2) Are the costs of those higher taxes worth it just to fix some pot holes and repave some back country roads? Keep in mind, there are costs that go beyond just paying higher taxes. If Greenville county would have raised its taxes on groceries, then people who live near the border of the county line will likely shop in other counties with lower taxes which would result in less business for our local grocery stores. If you want less of something, tax it.
TL;DR: High taxes don't equal great roads but we need to do something to get the funds to repave roads in SC.

I know that NC is a frequent target for this argument. The gas tax there is a LOT higher than here in SC (38 vs. 17 cents per gallon). They also have a 3% sales tax that you pay when you title a car in the state that is supposed to go into the highway fund. With a gas tax twice as high as in SC, the immediate question is, are the roads in NC twice as good? I think the answer is an obvious no.

That being said, during the 7 years we lived there, the NC state government consistently "stole" money out of the gas tax to fund non-road programs. At one point, they were putting hundreds of millions of dollars in gas tax money into the general fund. This practice may have changed since we lived there but at one time it was a part of the reason the roads in NC had deteriorated a bit.

Another interesting thing about the gas tax in NC is that it is tied to the average price of gas and automatically adjusts up (or down) every six months without action from the state legislature. This is in contrast to SC where the tax rate has been the same on a gallon of gas since 1987. While I am not comfortable with a tax that automatically raises itself, it is hard to argue that the cost of paving roads hasn't increased in the last 27 years.

The NCDOT is also a huge, inefficient bureaucracy that wastes a lot of money on worthless and low value projects. NC tends to build a lot of 4 lane highways out in the boonies while neglecting more populated areas like Charlotte and Raleigh that have a fair amount of traffic congestion.

I know that when I drive the roads in SC, it seems that traffic congestion is no worse (and often better) than when I drive in other states. What IS different is the sate of repair of our roads. Our interstates and many of our primary roads are in need of resurfacing. I-85 from Greenville northward to NC (except the Spartanburg "bypass") is in need of resurfacing along most of its length. SC 153 between Powdersville and Easley is a road that sees a lot of traffic and it is in desperate need of resurfacing. Those are just 2 examples that immediately come to mind - I could come up with others. When I drive in Georgia, Alabama, North Carolina, and most of the rest of the south, the roads are in better shape in general. States in the Midwest and Northeast are as bad or worse but the winter weather in those areas drives a lot of their poor road conditions. I drive a lot for work and in my spare time (over 25,000 miles last year) so I get to see a lot of highways along the way.

I don't think we should to adopt the NC model but I could support a 5 cent increase in the gas tax aimed at repaving roads and replacing deficient bridges.
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Old 12-31-2014, 07:10 AM
Status: "I'm not MAGA, I'm an American!" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Upstate
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Good post WhitewaterVol. SC Gov Haley is supposed to come out with her "fix" for our roads in January. I'm very curious to hear what she will say since she is against raising the gas tax.

I agree with your statement that says basically the cost of building roads has increased while SC gas tax has not. If SC DOT would use our money efficiently, then most drivers wouldn't have a problem supporting a modest gas tax increase now and maybe another down the "road" a bit.
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Old 12-31-2014, 11:54 AM
 
3,200 posts, read 4,585,695 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhitewaterVol View Post
TL;DR: High taxes don't equal great roads but we need to do something to get the funds to repave roads in SC.

I know that NC is a frequent target for this argument. The gas tax there is a LOT higher than here in SC (38 vs. 17 cents per gallon). They also have a 3% sales tax that you pay when you title a car in the state that is supposed to go into the highway fund. With a gas tax twice as high as in SC, the immediate question is, are the roads in NC twice as good? I think the answer is an obvious no.

That being said, during the 7 years we lived there, the NC state government consistently "stole" money out of the gas tax to fund non-road programs. At one point, they were putting hundreds of millions of dollars in gas tax money into the general fund. This practice may have changed since we lived there but at one time it was a part of the reason the roads in NC had deteriorated a bit.

Another interesting thing about the gas tax in NC is that it is tied to the average price of gas and automatically adjusts up (or down) every six months without action from the state legislature. This is in contrast to SC where the tax rate has been the same on a gallon of gas since 1987. While I am not comfortable with a tax that automatically raises itself, it is hard to argue that the cost of paving roads hasn't increased in the last 27 years.

The NCDOT is also a huge, inefficient bureaucracy that wastes a lot of money on worthless and low value projects. NC tends to build a lot of 4 lane highways out in the boonies while neglecting more populated areas like Charlotte and Raleigh that have a fair amount of traffic congestion.

I know that when I drive the roads in SC, it seems that traffic congestion is no worse (and often better) than when I drive in other states. What IS different is the sate of repair of our roads. Our interstates and many of our primary roads are in need of resurfacing. I-85 from Greenville northward to NC (except the Spartanburg "bypass") is in need of resurfacing along most of its length. SC 153 between Powdersville and Easley is a road that sees a lot of traffic and it is in desperate need of resurfacing. Those are just 2 examples that immediately come to mind - I could come up with others. When I drive in Georgia, Alabama, North Carolina, and most of the rest of the south, the roads are in better shape in general. States in the Midwest and Northeast are as bad or worse but the winter weather in those areas drives a lot of their poor road conditions. I drive a lot for work and in my spare time (over 25,000 miles last year) so I get to see a lot of highways along the way.

I don't think we should to adopt the NC model but I could support a 5 cent increase in the gas tax aimed at repaving roads and replacing deficient bridges.
You are 100% right with regards to NC. The state legislators, especially from the east, used the highway trust fund for special projects. The state also increased to number of urban loops to be constructed, I think the total number of loops is up to 8 or 9 across NC. Loops in Charlotte were short changed as a result. 485 has taken decades to build and it was built too small when it opened. It is better now and almost complete but it took too long while the state built 4 lane highways to farm communities or built out places like the Global Trans Park which was advertised as the new air hub of the east coast. This has gotten better with Mayor Pat as Gov but that is relative.

In general, I don't think we will build ourselves out of congestion. The cost is simply too great as are the opportunity costs. But, spending the money more wisely would help in addition to other revenue sources. In Greenville, I am not sure the state needs to spend as much on the 385/85 interchange just as I don't think the state needed to spend as much on the bridge in Charleston. Saving $150-200m from these projects could do a lot of maintenance like paving I85 or fixing malfunction junction.

I am sure that is where a lot of the distrust comes from in addition to trying to pave every dirt road in the upstate. However, indexing the tax to a 27 year old number is a joke.
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Old 12-31-2014, 04:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by GSP101 View Post
You are 100% right with regards to NC. The state legislators, especially from the east, used the highway trust fund for special projects. The state also increased to number of urban loops to be constructed, I think the total number of loops is up to 8 or 9 across NC. Loops in Charlotte were short changed as a result. 485 has taken decades to build and it was built too small when it opened. It is better now and almost complete but it took too long while the state built 4 lane highways to farm communities or built out places like the Global Trans Park which was advertised as the new air hub of the east coast. This has gotten better with Mayor Pat as Gov but that is relative.

In general, I don't think we will build ourselves out of congestion. The cost is simply too great as are the opportunity costs. But, spending the money more wisely would help in addition to other revenue sources. In Greenville, I am not sure the state needs to spend as much on the 385/85 interchange just as I don't think the state needed to spend as much on the bridge in Charleston. Saving $150-200m from these projects could do a lot of maintenance like paving I85 or fixing malfunction junction.

I am sure that is where a lot of the distrust comes from in addition to trying to pave every dirt road in the upstate. However, indexing the tax to a 27 year old number is a joke.
At least the Charlotte loop has been built. The loop in Raleigh is desperately needed there and may never be completely finished. The projection was so far out on construction date that the most needed section connecting Holly Springs and Apex to the Research Triangle Park was finally built as a toll road. The Greensboro loop that is far less needed is actually further along in construction.

I-26 through Asheville is also significantly substandard. I think the project to replace that road is nearing construction but it should have been done a long time ago based on the traffic need.

During that time, NCDOT has wasted money on projects like building the unnecessary I-73 and I-74. The state would have better spent those funds building roads that served the traffic need at a far lower cost than required to meet interstate design standards.

I had forgotten about the money pit called Global Trans Park. Hard to believe NC dumped over $250 million into that hole - mainly in the name of enriching people as political favors.

The SCDOT seems like a model of efficiency in comparison to the NCDOT.
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Old 12-31-2014, 04:44 PM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
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Originally Posted by WhitewaterVol View Post
At least the Charlotte loop has been built. The loop in Raleigh is desperately needed there and may never be completely finished. The projection was so far out on construction date that the most needed section connecting Holly Springs and Apex to the Research Triangle Park was finally built as a toll road. The Greensboro loop that is far less needed is actually further along in construction.

I-26 through Asheville is also significantly substandard. I think the project to replace that road is nearing construction but it should have been done a long time ago based on the traffic need.

During that time, NCDOT has wasted money on projects like building the unnecessary I-73 and I-74. The state would have better spent those funds building roads that served the traffic need at a far lower cost than required to meet interstate design standards.

I had forgotten about the money pit called Global Trans Park. Hard to believe NC dumped over $250 million into that hole - mainly in the name of enriching people as political favors.

The SCDOT seems like a model of efficiency in comparison to the NCDOT.
North Carolina does seem eager to build a lot of useless highways while putting the common-sense improvements on the back burner. I-26 needs to be modernized through Asheville; I almost ran off the highway driving through there at night. They also ought to upgrade U.S. 74 to Interstate standards between Charlotte and I-95. Building an Interstate-grade highway to Boone seems like overkill to me; a simple arterial highway ought to have been enough.

One thing that both the Carolinas have going against them is that they have very large networks of state-maintained roads, which spreads their resources a lot thinner than other nearby states. As a result, the Carolinas have among the worst roads of all the Southern states. Even Georgia has fewer miles of roads to maintain than either of the Carolinas despite being the largest state east of the Missisippi River.

I do think there has to be a negative relationship between the extent of the state-maintained road network and the quality of the roads. I grew up in Pennsylvania, where bitching about the roads is a sport, but what most people don't realize is that PennDOT has almost as many miles of state-maintained roads as ConnDOT, MaineDOT, MassDOT, NHDOT, NJDOT, NYSDOT, RIDOT and VTrans combined. That has to make things more difficult.
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Old 12-31-2014, 06:12 PM
 
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Originally Posted by WhitewaterVol View Post
At least the Charlotte loop has been built. The loop in Raleigh is desperately needed there and may never be completely finished. The projection was so far out on construction date that the most needed section connecting Holly Springs and Apex to the Research Triangle Park was finally built as a toll road. The Greensboro loop that is far less needed is actually further along in construction.

I-26 through Asheville is also significantly substandard. I think the project to replace that road is nearing construction but it should have been done a long time ago based on the traffic need.

During that time, NCDOT has wasted money on projects like building the unnecessary I-73 and I-74. The state would have better spent those funds building roads that served the traffic need at a far lower cost than required to meet interstate design standards.

I had forgotten about the money pit called Global Trans Park. Hard to believe NC dumped over $250 million into that hole - mainly in the name of enriching people as political favors.

The SCDOT seems like a model of efficiency in comparison to the NCDOT.
73/74 is a waste. GTP was a terrible idea that cost the state millions to build a world class research/industrial park in the middle of nowhere. 540 is the second loop in Raleigh after 440. I know 440 is much smaller but it is another loop. There is no doubt that the road money in NC was distributed by political influence. Raleigh and Charlotte are driving the growth in NC and will do so for the as long as you can see into the future. I think that things are changing now the Mayor Pat is governor.

SCDOT is more efficient because they have no money to work with. But SC seriously needs to come to grips with the fact that the current model is not working. You can't benchmark 1987 dollars. I have not factored the time value of money but it is easy to say that SC is getting further behind by the current equation. And, just like NC, SC's road money is driven by politics. The bridge in Charleston, although nice, was built because the mayor wanted the state to fund the entire project based on what he wanted. I think the 385/85 interchange is being built as an Atanta/Charlotte type interchange to impress. Meanwhile, the I85 is in terrible shape, I77 is in the same condition between Charlotte and Columbia. The bridge over the Catawaba River had holes where you could see the water below. And, the I26/I20 interchange has not been touched in 50 years (it may be 50 more years due to the lack of political clout Columbia has with the state).
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