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Old 05-17-2017, 11:30 AM
 
607 posts, read 773,753 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrew5 View Post
If Wade Hampton was a county, again nice try. Even trying to rename the CDP of Wade Hampton would be a stretch.
It is, in the lower part of the state:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampto...South_Carolina

Of course, we've got bigger problems than that. Nathanael Greene owned a huge plantation, complete with slaves. We're going to have to do something with these "Greenville" city and county names and get rid of that statue at the corner of Broad Street and Main.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'The Waterfall City'
4,030 posts, read 1,653,886 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jandrew5 View Post
This is what I was just talking about. Those city names aren't going anywhere. Renaming Easley would be a major interruption in terms of cost, logistics, everything. Washington is not going anywhere either. Owning slaves or not, Washington is synonymous with the US along with Lincoln.

With all the name changing controversy, I haven't seen anyone suggest cities and counties, just...physical objects. In DC, people have suggested renaming Jefferson Davis Hwy and removing his statue. Two physical objects. No one has suggested renaming Washington or tearing down Mount Vernon or the Jefferson Memorial.

The only one of those on your list that would have any chance is Byrnes, because it's a physical school. Even then I've seen that most would be satisfied with just changing the "Rebel" name rather than the school name.

And what you're trying to be subtle and say "it's the democrats fault", but you know good and well that modern day democrats have nothing to do with those guys. Same with Republicans. Not everything has to be a partisan fight.
I understand that modern day Democrats have nothing to do with those guys, so why don't they change the name of their party?

Isn't it a contradiction to want to ban the use of individual Democrat names but not their party name? Why doesn't that name offend just as much?

I believe that for many people calling to remove these statues and change the names, it is partisan. They are trying to associate these names with the modern GOP. My belief is that we wouldn't be hearing about this if the Democrats were in power in SC. Btw, you are one of the most partisan people on this forum yet you always accuse me of being partisan. The reason that you object to my point is because you are a partisan.

Why ask black voters to vote for a party name that supported slavery, secession, Jim Crow, KKK, lynching, segregation, etc? It is like asking Jews to vote for a party named National Socialist German Workers' Party.

It is also inconsistent to say we shouldn't take down momuments to Jefferson and Washington.

I've always wanted the statue of Calhoun in Marion Square in downtown Charleston taken down. It is creepy.

Greenville has a large number of Confederate monuments that I didn't realize was there, in the front part of Springs Cemetery. One of the Confederate monuments, the one that looks like a miniature Washington Monument, used to be on Main Street but they moved it to improve traffic flow.

Last edited by Simpsonvilllian; 05-17-2017 at 11:56 AM..
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:36 AM
 
4,002 posts, read 2,266,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j7r6s View Post
It is, in the lower part of the state:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hampto...South_Carolina

Of course, we've got bigger problems than that. Nathanael Greene owned a huge plantation, complete with slaves. We're going to have to do something with these "Greenville" city and county names and get rid of that statue at the corner of Broad Street and Main.
True. I meant the obvious name "Wade Hampton", like how Texas has a "Jeff Davis County", since "Hampton" could be anybody, but you are right. My point though is no one is actively trying to rename the county. Or Calhoun County. Or Laurens County. Or Pickens County. Or Lee County. Etc.

People are offended by statues and schools, but then the other side is offended at that offense and thinks everything is in danger. It isnt.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:57 AM
 
4,002 posts, read 2,266,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
I understand that modern day Democrats have nothing to do with those guys, so why don't they change the name of their party?

Isn't it a contradiction to want to ban the use of individual Democrat names but not their party name? Why doesn't that name offend just as much?

What you don't seem to understand is that for many people calling to remove these statues and change the names, it is partisan. They are trying to associate these names with the modern GOP. My belief is that we wouldn't be hearing about this if the Democrats were in power in SC.

Why ask black voters to vote for a party name that supported slavery, secession, Jim Crow, KKK, lynching, segregation, etc? It is like asking Jews to vote for a party named National Socialist German Workers' Party.

It is also inconsistent to say we shouldn't take down momuments to Jefferson and Washington.

I've always wanted the statue of Calhoun in Marion Square in downtown Charleston taken down. It is creepy.

Greenville has a large number of Confederate monuments that I didn't realize was there, in the front part of Springs Cementary. One of the Confederate monuments, the one that looks like a miniature Washington Monument, used to be on Main Street but they moved it to improve traffic flow.
I don't know, good question. If you get rid of Democratic, you should get rid of Republican too. With your argument, both are dated names and both have had policies they shouldn't be proud of. There's no either/or. It's all or nothing.

People aren't associating these statues with the GOP. The issues is its mainly GOPers who are defending them staying up, so people take that defense and identify GOP with it. No one is saying "Wade Hampton was a racist, GOP is a racist."

You'd be hearing about this regardless. Name changing and statue removal isn't some new thing like people are treating it as. People have wanted Strom Thurman to be changed since forever. The Calhoun statue has always had it's opponents. It's well known that Washington owned slaves, this is no new revelation: but it feels new because Millennials are the ones bringing it to the forefront - and we weren't taught it in school, but we are now old enough to educate ourselves, instead of taking we what read in a textbook as gospel.

I didn't say we shouldn't take Washington and Jefferson down, but we don't need to and we won't. That doesn't make any sense in many ways, and only a few hardcore people would really be down for that. Owning slaves was something that most free people did back then, and most Americans understand that. The other side has blown it out of proportion and turned the narrative into them saying "anyone who owned slaves should be erased." That is just not true.

I'm sure Greenville has a lot of monuments, but what you have to realize is that people don't want everything erased or taken away. The confederate flag for instance: many people were okay with it being in a museum. No one wanted it burned and buried or thrown in a landfill. Tillman Hall has come under controversy, not because of slaves or him being white or whatever, but because of the awful man he was. Washington owned slaves, that doesnt automatically make him an evil man, or negate the fact that he was our 1st President. That is the point. Columbus was pretty awful, and getting rid of Columbus Day makes sense - but Columbus OH, GA, and Columbia, SC are here to stay, forever.

There is not a war on names. Wanting the name of Wade Hampton changed is just because of the man he was. There are better men, and women, from Greenville and SC who could be honored - if the school has to be named after anyone at all.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'The Waterfall City'
4,030 posts, read 1,653,886 times
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You have no evidence it is 'mainly GOP' defending them. That assertion is rooted in your partisanship. You want this issue to be a Democrat vs Republican issue. I don't think most GOP in Greenville care what the school is called. Those that are opposed to changing the name have non-racist reasons for it and you even cited some of those non-racist reasons.

It is my understanding that you have never lived in Greenville based on your previous posts, yet you post so much on this forum about racism, Confederate flag, school names, etc. How does a school name in Greenville affect your life? You also didn't attend CU.

Owning slaves did make Washington an evil man, if owning slaves is evil, and it is.

Tillman supported the first female school in the state, Winthrop. He actually wanted to convert The Citadel to a female school. He called the Citadel a 'dude factory'. It is my understanding that he also pardoned several black men who were convicts being used to help construct Tillman Hall and other Clemson campus buildings. Not everything Tillman did was bad, such as pushing for the creation of a separate agricultural school in the state and helping to found Clemson. The building was only named after Tillman because he pushed for an agricultural school, not because he was a racist. Tillman Hall at Winthrop is also named after him, and he also helped found SC State.

Last edited by Simpsonvilllian; 05-17-2017 at 12:24 PM..
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:24 PM
 
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Well there it is. We were actually having a good debate for once, but of course you've turned into your same old self, pulling out the usual tropes.

I brought up the flag as a general example to my point. I said people wanted it in a museum, not in the trash, but of course you spun that into a negative.

Well nevermind then. It was a good debate while it lasted and you had actually made some good points, but I'm not about to do the back and forth with you. I was just responding to your points. Also pretty sure I've never brought up "school names" before, but okay, if you say so.

I do have to point out the hilarity in you calling Washington evil, but trying to give Tillman brownie points. That is something.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'The Waterfall City'
4,030 posts, read 1,653,886 times
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I think it is incredible that you want to excuse Washington, who owned slaves and supported the institution of slavery, while beating up on Tillman. I don't think Tillman owned slaves.

I don't care for Tillman at all, to include his non-racist views on economics and attachment to a single industry, agriculture. I was just pointing out that Tillman wasn't all bad, given you claimed Washington wasn't all bad. He was actually quite progressive on female education for his day.

I support changing the name of Tillman to Watson Hall or Watson-Renfrow Hall, as I posted previously. To make me out as a Tillman apologist doesn't make any sense.

My point is many of your posts on the Greenville forum are about racism, Confederate flag, etc. Not so much about new developments in the community. You've posted more about Wade Hampton high school than people on this forum who live in Greenville.

The name of Wade Hampton High School didn't kill that 17 year old Wade Hampton Student this week. A gang did. But you've talked more about the name of the high school than her murder by a gang. That is because there is no partisan angle on that story.

Last edited by Simpsonvilllian; 05-17-2017 at 12:40 PM..
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Greenville
453 posts, read 535,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vistatiger View Post
I don't like a lot of things about history either but I am not sure it's a good idea to go around and try to erase history by removing statues and renaming things. Isn't there a famous quote " Those who cannot remember history are condemned to repeat it".

I would like to know how grads of WHHS that have diplomas from there and fond memories of their school feel about it?
I'm a graduate of Wade Hampton High School. Class of 1986. No matter the outcome of this name change, they will never take away my memories and four great years that I spent at the school. The saying has always been true and always will be, "The times are a changing." Names change in all kinds of settings for one reason or another all the time. I shouldn't expect this to be no different. The old Wade Hampton got replaced with the new Wade Hampton and now I guess the time has come to change the name as well. At least for now I can still point out to my children and one day my grandchildren and say that is where my high school use to be and the name was once Wade Hampton High School. Home of the Mighty Generals!!!
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Old 05-17-2017, 01:03 PM
 
4,002 posts, read 2,266,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simpsonvilllian View Post
I think it is incredible that you want to excuse Washington, who owned slaves and supported the institution of slavery, while beating up on Tillman. I don't think Tillman owned slaves.

I don't care for Tillman at all, to include his non-racist views on economics and attachment to a single industry, agriculture. I was just pointing out that Tillman wasn't all bad, given you claimed Washington wasn't all bad. He was actually quite progressive on female education for his day.

I support changing the name of Tillman to Watson Hall or Watson-Renfrow Hall, as I posted previously. To make me out as a Tillman apologist doesn't make any sense.

My point is many of your posts on the Greenville forum are about racism, Confederate flag, etc. Not so much about new developments in the community. You've posted more about Wade Hampton high school than people on this forum who live in Greenville.

The name of Wade Hampton High School didn't kill that 17 year old Wade Hampton Student this week. A gang did. But you've talked more about the name of the high school than her murder by a gang. That is because there is no partisan angle on that story.

Spoiler
Wasn't excusing him. Was pointing out that there is a state of 7 million people, a federal district, multiple monuments, 12 universities, 4 forts, rivers, mountains, cities, counties, villages, an island, an estate, sports teams, churches, museums, schools, streets, highways, parks, bridges, neighborhoods, and even a stained glass window named after or featuring him.

And he was the first President of the United States. And he is on our currency and on Mount Rushmore. There is no escaping George Washington. He is apart of the blood of the US. There are even monuments, streets, and towns named for him outside of the United States. If you (general you) hate George Washington, good luck trying to get away from him.

Removing "Washington" from everything is impossible, just from the cost of it alone. Signs to DC don't say "DC" or "District of Columbia", they say "Washington." Changing every highway sign is costly, and a pointless waste of money, just because he owned slaves. "Wade Hampton High School" and "George Washington everything" do not compare. People are coming at WH because of his character. Not because of slaves, his race, his party, or any other reason.

Everyone owned slaves back then. Since it was the norm, I think Washington's character and how he treated his slaves is more important. If he beat them mercilessly and spat on them everyday, yes he's pure evil. By what I've studied that doesn't sound like him, but still not renaming everything.

Tillman doesn't compare and by the South Carolina history I've studied, he was an evil person. I'm entitled to that opinion. That doesnt mean I am obsessed with it. My dad worked by Tillman Hall, and I've been inside it. When I would visit his office, do you think I would stand there and stare at Tillman Hall and curse it? Nope. Didn't care, don't care. I don't like him, but like you said, the building name doesn't effect me, which I was already aware of. WHHS doesnt effect me, and I didn't even say the name needs to be changed, just gave my opinion on it and the general matter of the renaming issue. I'm allowed to.

Most of my posts here are about real estate, retail, and growth. But if you think that's all I talk about then okay, sure. Good to see you're keeping tabs. I've posted in this thread 10 times, but 8 of those was replying to someone. You're the only person here I've seen who keeps tabs of people and their posts. No one else here has ever seemed to care.

I don't need to talk anymore about her murder because I've already gotten my point across. I've gotten my point across here as well. The only reason I was still here was to discuss with you and others. It's called a conversation. Nice strawman. PS never called you pro-Tillman, but if that's what you want to believe.

But okay man. Have at it.
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Greenville SC 'The Waterfall City'
4,030 posts, read 1,653,886 times
Reputation: 1394
I do enthusiastically support taking monuments down. If we are a country that believes all men are created equal, we should not build monuments to men.

Lincoln was the man but I find the DC Lincoln monument to be kind of creepy.

It is weird that the Confederate flag came down but never heard much about all the Confederate monuments on the state house grounds. There is a Wade Hampton monument, a Ben 'Pitchfork' Tillman monument, and others on the state house grounds.

I saw a list of all the things named after former senator Robert Byrd in West Virginia. It was incredible how much is named after him in that state. He was in the KKK when he was younger and filibustered the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
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