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The point I was trying to make was that a significant chunk of the local population is strongly opposed to any type of zoning or planning. Many of my relatives from the Boomer generation that are local see any type of zoning and/or planning by government as some type of evil "librul" scheme by "Yankees" to take over the south. I know that sounds crazy but that is the type of stuff I hear around the table while relatives eat at Christmas parties, family reunions, weddings, and funerals. This isn't people joking, either.....
My prediction is that the OP is right in that 20 years, the Woodruff Road corridor will be largely abandoned in favor of some new hotspot, much like what has happened along Laurens Road. The only thing that might change that is that a lot of Millennials seem to embrace more urban development that was spurned by the Boomer generation.
Ok, I don't think that your characterization of conservatives is accurate. I don't think a conservatives are anti-planning or think planning in general is 'evil'. I think most conservatives can spell or pronounce liberal as well.
I don't think that you have provided any evidence that the shopping centers on Woodruff were not well planned or any evidence that the Woodruff Road corridor will be abandoned in 20 years. That seems pretty far fetched.
Laurens Road isn't abandoned now. There are numerous businesses on that road. It is basically sounds like you are saying the government should force certain businesses to locate on Laurens Road. I want to see businesses locate where they want to locate. I don't see any reason why Laurens Road is entitled to have certain shops on it.
From my standpoint, I think retail being located on Woodruff between Roper Mountain and 385 is better than being located on a commuter road like Laurens Road. If all that retail was on Laurens Road, , the traffic would be even worse and Laurens would be like 280 in Birmingham.
Last edited by ClemVegas; 09-15-2017 at 11:35 AM..
Ok, I don't think that your characterization of conservatives is accurate. I don't think a conservatives are anti-planning or think planning in general is 'evil'. I think most conservatives can spell or pronounce liberal as well.
I don't think that you have provided any evidence that the shopping centers on Woodruff were not well planned or any evidence that the Woodruff Road corridor will be abandoned in 20 years.
Laurens Road isn't abandoned now. There are numerous businesses on that road. It is basically sounds like you are saying the government should force certain businesses to locate on Laurens Road.
Conservatives in this area are almost all anti-government in general and even more so as it pertains to zoning and restrictions on development.
To almost anyone who has driven on Woodruff Road on a weekend, particularly between Thanksgiving and Christmas during the last 5 years it is pretty self-evident that the shopping centers on Woodruff Road were not well planned.
There are significant stretches of Laurens Road with retail that has been abandoned. Didn't they finally tear down the buildings for the old Sam's Club and Best Buy after they had sat vacant for many years? There are several other shopping centers along that stretch of road that look very tired.
I never said that businesses should be forced to locate on Laurens Road. I would say that before new areas are developed with retail that there should be some type of long term planning in place that is actually followed to prevent a repeat of the congestion that now exists on Woodruff Road. Laurens Road was similarly congested at one time. Laurens Road was widened through a significant investment of public dollars and then the corridor was largely abandoned for the Woodruff Road corridor. There is still some retail along Laurens Road but it does not generate the level of traffic that the corridor saw 15-20 years ago. Now the Woodruff Road corridor is severely congested and people are demanding an investment of public dollars to improve that corridor. Before that money is spent, it would be nice to know that the corridor will not be subsequently abandoned for yet another retail corridor that then becomes congested.
Part of this could be self regulating if new retail development had to contribute to some kind of fund that was then used for road improvements within that corridor. If that was done, if a large amount of development occurred within a corridor, that development would then pay for the needed road improvements. Even better, if long range planning was used effectively, the infrastructure could be built ahead of the development. Infrastructure improvement is much cheaper to do before the businesses and traffic arrives.
You are criticizing the zoning decisions by city leaders in Greenville while at same time criticizing conservatives for being anti-government. You are trying to blame conservatives for traffic on Woodruff Road. It makes no sense. I think that you have acknowledge that there is traffic congestion up north and other liberal areas. You seem eager to politicize traffic.
There are numerous businesses on Laurens Road to include most of the car dealerships. It isn't abandoned. Businesses come and go on all roads and in all shopping centers.
Woodruff Road is congested is because there is a lot of retail and demand to go to them. It has nothing to do with the shopping centers or roads being poorly planned.
The only thing that could have prevented that congestion is for the city is to set a limit on the number of stores beings built in those shopping centers.
Laurens Road never had the kind of shopping that Woodruff Road has. Laurens is a busy road so I don't think you can make the case expanding it to 6 lanes was a waste of money. It is a major commuter road in the metro.
Traffic on Laurens would be horrendous if all that retail on Woodruff was on Laurens. The beauty of Woodruff being the main retail area is most people don't commute from work down that stretch.
Last edited by ClemVegas; 09-15-2017 at 12:11 PM..
No, that's not my point at all, and your last post in particular has nothing to do with my point. It's not worth continuing this discussion.
Can you provide an example of a suburban retail shopping center located on a grid in another metro? I'm currently in north Atlanta burbs and I have not seen any shopping centers like that here. McBee Station is a bunch of small stores.
My point is I don't understand how big box store shopping centers can be laid out similarly to shops on Main Street. They are bigger stores with more customers and need big parking lots and can't be located that close to each other.
In one of your previous posts, you said that there are no places to park and walk to shops. I was pointing out that people can do that at these shopping centers in Greenville. Many times when I go to Greenridge, I park at Barnes and Noble, and walk over to Best Buy and Dick's Sporting Goods.
You also made Haywood Road out as though it doesn't have much going on but in recent years, Tijuana Flats, Panera Bread, Chipolte, 5 Guys, Performance Bicycle, Cheesecake Factory, Grill Marks, Conns, Gabes, Papa's and Beer, etc have opened up on Haywood. Also a new hotel near 385 and a large apartment complex near the mall.
It appears the shopping center where Books A Million and Sports Authority used to be on Laurens road is fully leased or close to it. The shopping center with Michael's appears to be fully leased. The Verdae shopping center is doing well. All of these shopping centers have well known stores like Petsmart, not check advance type of places. Best Buy and Sam's Club were really only two major stores that moved from Laurens to Woodruff.
One of the oldest shopping centers on Laurens, near Pleasantburg has a Half Moon Outfitter, Trek Bicycle, a music store, etc.
Last edited by ClemVegas; 09-15-2017 at 01:24 PM..
I live close to the Pleasantburg Shopping Center - even though it's older, it has some great stores: Borderlands Comics, Wilson's, Great Escape/Trek, Half Moon Outfitters; Luthi's Outfitters replaced Earshot in 2014 - Earshot re-opened at a (smaller) shopping center directly across the street but closed in 2015
Laurens Road is beginning to revitalize - new Infiniti dealership, Willy Taco, Kitchen Sync (fantastic), Schwaben House; upcoming Verdae shopping center with Harris Teeter or Lowe's Food; I've been informed that the Chic-fil-a on Laurens will close at some point and will be converted to a conventional CFA instead of drive-thru only
Given how bad traffic can be on higher-speed roads surrounded by low-density commercial development, and given that the "hot" low-density commercial area then falls into disrepair when the next low-density commercial area is built, why does Greenville keep allowing that type of development?
1970s: Pleasantburg Drive: "Hot", with bad traffic
1980s: Laurens Road and Haywood Road: "Hot", with bad traffic
1990s-present: Woodruff Road: "Hot", with bad traffic (and with Pleasantburg Drive, Laurens Road and Haywood Road in disrepair)
It doesn't take an authoritative voice from a burning bush to figure out what will happen next:
2020s or later: X Road: "Hot", with bad traffic (with Woodruff Road, Pleasantburg Drive, Laurens Road and Haywood Road in disrepair)
Why doesn't Greenville:
* Require that the next "hot" commercial area be built on a grid street network so that people can park somewhere and walk around from business to business, like downtown?
* Require higher-quality commercial structures in the next "hot" commercial area, instead of disposable commercial bric-a-brac?
I'm genuinely confused as to why Greenville keeps allowing the same kind of commercial areas to be built, resulting in heavy traffic and then a slide into disrepair.
Greenville has grown like every other sprawling southern city. Go look at Greenville's peer cities - Greensboro, Durham, Knoxville, Huntsville - they're all the same way. Part of it is not having the foresight, but part of it is also not having the demand. You need a car to get around Greenville, you don't need one in NYC or DC, so it doesn't make sense to build everything to walk to.
Keep in mind Greenville is a regional hub, so even if Woodruff was built for Greenville residents to walk it, people from Anderson, Easley, and Spartanburg will still need somewhere to park.
Pleasantburg isn't in "disrepair", it just has empty stretches and is too wide. It'll eventually see renewed interest, just like Laurens is starting to. The city has put a lot of money into Haywood recently. Woodruff is a mess, but people go there anyway.
No matter what you build and how you build it, Greenville will always be #1, by far. All of Greenville can't be downtown.
I live close to the Pleasantburg Shopping Center - even though it's older, it has some great stores: Borderlands Comics, Wilson's, Great Escape/Trek, Half Moon Outfitters; Luthi's Outfitters replaced Earshot in 2014 - Earshot re-opened at a (smaller) shopping center directly across the street but closed in 2015
Laurens Road is beginning to revitalize - new Infiniti dealership, Willy Taco, Kitchen Sync (fantastic), Schwaben House; upcoming Verdae shopping center with Harris Teeter or Lowe's Food; I've been informed that the Chic-fil-a on Laurens will close at some point and will be converted to a conventional CFA instead of drive-thru only
I believe the Earshot people reopened again across the street as Pharmacy Records. I haven't been there yet but there is a recent review on Google maps for their store so I assume it is still open.
The old SC DMV site on Laurens near Pleasantburg is supposed to be getting a development called Laurens Village. I'm not sure what the status on it is now but here is an article from 2016. https://greenvillejournal.com/2016/0...key-approvals/
I think it is likely Laurens Road is going to see major development from Washington Street down to 85 in the next 20 years. I can see a lot of apartments and condos going up closer to Washington Street.
I think the shopping centers on Laurens have done a good job filling vacancies over the years. The road lost a few businesses that were failing on a national or regional level, K-Mart, Sports Authority, Peak Fitness, Goodys, Books A Million.
I had thought the Skyzone closed but it looks like it is still open.
Last edited by ClemVegas; 09-16-2017 at 12:52 AM..
...I think it is likely Laurens Road is going to see major development from Washington Street down to 85 in the next 20 years...I had thought the Skyzone closed but it looks like it is still open.
Completely agree - there is a tremendous amount of wealth between neighborhoods off Parkins Mill and Verdae - I'm surprised developers have not capitalized on this - the upcoming Verdae shopping center will finally access those shoppers - Skyzone is open but my kids prefer Big Air in Spartanburg
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