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Old 12-18-2016, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,904 posts, read 32,658,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phonelady61 View Post
You know what , your kids made their bed so to speak let them lie in it . They seem to be very disrespectful to you and I would have told them there is the door make good use of it especially when they ruin a holiday . Oh dare they speak to you like that and you let them I would have kicked them right out that door and so what they are not speaking to you , they will get over it , if not oh well and let them carry on . You are doing the right thing and they are too young to see it .Let them carry on the way they are and you do what you have to do and so be it .
I DID make them leave! And believe me, I'm not putting up with that stuff. And I am not going to host another holiday at my house with either of them involved or invited.

I'm in the process of sending Christmas money to my youngest daughter's kids - specifically to them. The fact that she has four of my grandchildren does break my heart. And they only live an hour away. I really miss them and am concerned about them.

Thank God I have at least one "normal" kid - and she has four more of our eight grandchildren, as well as a husband we love. It was great to spend a few days with them last week. It was like medicine to my soul. And her kids are so well behaved and so happy and outgoing and loving. It was terrific.

My youngest son isn't being rude to me - he's just withdrawn a lot from everyone, including his two siblings who are acting bizarre. I can't really blame him. I'm just letting that ride out. He's always needed more space and has always been less "involved" in family emotions and situations so this doesn't really surprise me. He does not like drama and I will not force him to "pick sides." So there's that.
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Old 12-18-2016, 01:30 PM
 
Location: SW US
1,995 posts, read 1,853,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
.....His mental healthcare facility actually tried to get me to sign for his temporary visits - which meant that I was taking on the responsibility of monitoring him 24/7 and guaranteeing that he would not be around drugs, alcohol, or weapons and would be with me every minute of the day and night. I said, "Are you kidding me? HE won't abide by those rules. So no." And he wouldn't have. My dad used to sign for him so to speak, agreeing to those terms, and the minute my brother was "out" he would do whatever he wanted to do and to hell with the terms of temporary release.

He's not a nice guy.

He is a ward of the state at the moment and on 100 percent disability. At present, his physical health is stable. If that changes, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. But frankly, there's not a lot that my mother and I can even do for him.
How is it that he is there with all of you now? Did someone else sign for him?

I have a former boyfriend who is mentally ill and refuses treatment. 15 years ago, he had an episode of major mania, something I had not previously seen in five years of dating him. He was driving all over the state drunk, carrying guns, handing out gifts to strangers he met, threatening me, etc. He was not the first bi-polar person I had known, but he was the first I ever felt afraid of. He refused to seek treatment. I asked an agency to intervene because of his behavior. He threatened their representatives with a gun. They sent the SWAT team and he was involuntarily committed. He was held for only two weeks then sent to a halfway house, and released soon after, when he threatened to sue them. The agency had promised me anonymity but a judge ordered them to give him my name. Since then I have always worried that when he has another episode, he will come after me. His episodes of major mania are years apart so probably he will soon get too old to come after me. He moved to a small town in another state which helps.
I would not say he is not a nice guy. He is just someone whose life has been taken over, mostly destroyed, by an illness. A social worker at the time told me he uses alcohol, and maybe drugs, to lessen the symptoms, since he won't take meds.

Paranoid schizophrenia usually strikes people just as they are getting started on their adult lives. I believe it's devastating to them because they are often smart enough to know, at least at times, that something beyond their control is happening to destroy their lives. My college roommate, back in the 60's, became P.S. our junior year, and her parents basically made her disappear.

I agree that you and your mother cannot treat him or really do much for him. He may be panicked now that your father, maybe his main supporter, has died. He can't work. What does his future hold? Will he have to live on the streets? Could that be why he recruits relatives to his side? Is there any way anyone can reassure him?
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Old 12-18-2016, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,904 posts, read 32,658,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windwalker2 View Post
How is it that he is there with all of you now? Did someone else sign for him?

I have a former boyfriend who is mentally ill and refuses treatment. 15 years ago, he had an episode of major mania, something I had not previously seen in five years of dating him. He was driving all over the state drunk, carrying guns, handing out gifts to strangers he met, threatening me, etc. He was not the first bi-polar person I had known, but he was the first I ever felt afraid of. He refused to seek treatment. I asked an agency to intervene because of his behavior. He threatened their representatives with a gun. They sent the SWAT team and he was involuntarily committed. He was held for only two weeks then sent to a halfway house, and released soon after, when he threatened to sue them. The agency had promised me anonymity but a judge ordered them to give him my name. Since then I have always worried that when he has another episode, he will come after me. His episodes of major mania are years apart so probably he will soon get too old to come after me. He moved to a small town in another state which helps.
I would not say he is not a nice guy. He is just someone whose life has been taken over, mostly destroyed, by an illness. A social worker at the time told me he uses alcohol, and maybe drugs, to lessen the symptoms, since he won't take meds.

Paranoid schizophrenia usually strikes people just as they are getting started on their adult lives. I believe it's devastating to them because they are often smart enough to know, at least at times, that something beyond their control is happening to destroy their lives. My college roommate, back in the 60's, became P.S. our junior year, and her parents basically made her disappear.

I agree that you and your mother cannot treat him or really do much for him. He may be panicked now that your father, maybe his main supporter, has died. He can't work. What does his future hold? Will he have to live on the streets? Could that be why he recruits relatives to his side? Is there any way anyone can reassure him?
He is NOT here with us now. They allowed him to come home for the funeral and then he had to go back a couple of days later, which he did. Not only that, they apparently searched him or tested him or something (or both) and actually locked him back up for about a week or two after he got back, because he had broken many of the rules of the temporary release, including substance abuse as well as gathering up and packing up a collection of very large knives. He may have also had guns with him, who knows? I do know that he has been trying to get all sorts of people to give him or sell him guns. WHY????????? WHY WHY WHY? It is against state and federal law for him to own guns!!!!!!

I stick by my statement that my brother is not a nice guy. Yes, he is mentally ill, but even his team of medical professionals agree that his drug use during his teen years (during brain development) and into his adult years either caused or greatly exacerbated his mental illness issues. And he was NEVER a nice guy - he has been a Class A jerk since he was a teenager and young adult. Come to think of it, he wasn't even a particularly nice kid. Always difficult, always spoiled, always a feeling of entitlement, and always devious and cruel. Always.

My brother is in a program offered by the state. He can stay in that program for the rest of his life if he chooses to do so. He is on 100 percent disability. However, even his medical team has assured us - and him - that he can and SHOULD work part time. He refuses to do so (no surprise there - he's never wanted to work). As long as he takes his meds and follows the rules of the program, he will never have to live on the streets. He knows all this, but it's not good enough for him. He wants his inheritance - MONEY - NOW. Never mind that it's not his - it's my mother's. He wants it now. Heck, he can't even have the money or he will lose his disability benefits!!!! It has to go into a trust called a Special Needs Trust and that is set up to provide comfortably for him. But that is after my mom dies - SHE'S NOT DEAD YET.

He is in no way, shape or form destitute and in no danger of having to "live on the streets" unless he voluntarily refuses to take his meds. Which would be ON HIM.

Being mentally ill does not absolve one of all personal responsibility. In some cases, especially when ongoing substance abuse is involved, it's hard to tell which came first - the substance abuse or the mental illness - and substance abuse ALWAYS makes mental illness worse, not better. A mentally ill person is still responsible for adhering to a treatment plan. If they need meds, they need to take responsibility for the decision to stay on or get off the meds. This is within the capabilities of most mentally ill people, including my brother. Like I said before, he has above average intelligence. He knows he is mentally ill and needs treatment, and in fact, he is a GROUP LEADER in his program. He preaches all the time about the importance of continuing therapy, including staying on meds. He leads classes on this very topic. He knows he is not supposed to mix the psychotropic drugs with illicit drugs or alcohol. He leads classes on this as well. But that doesn't stop him from mixing them apparently.

He also knows he is not supposed to own weapons. That doesn't stop him either.

My brother is determined to break the law, which he resents. He is also determined not to work. He is determined to try to manipulate his family into supporting him. He is determined to believe that I am trying to "cheat him out of his inheritance," which is not even true. (At one point, he was very actively trying to cajole my parents into leaving both my older brother and me completely out of their wills, by the way, leaving it all to him - and when that didn't work, he actually did convince them both for a time to name him as the executor - thankfully, they wised up after a while and changed that).

Last edited by KathrynAragon; 12-18-2016 at 02:05 PM..
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Myrtle Creek, Oregon
11,048 posts, read 11,460,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
1. No, my mother has not been declared incompetent by a court. I realize she can do whatever she wants without my consent. So what? What's that got to do with reality? The reality is that my mother trusts me because I am a competent, honest person, and I trust her as well. The reality is that my mother's health AND mental capacity are both frail and tenuous, due to several different health issues, and she knows it. The reality is that my father knew that too, and that is why BOTH my parents asked me to help both of them with their affairs - medical, financial, etc. - in their elderly years and especially if my father passed before my mother. So that's what I'm doing.

2. I have four adult children. Two of them are acting irrationally at the moment. All of my children know that their uncle is mentally ill. Seriously mentally ill. So your second question is sort of moot.

3. No, I'm not sure that my two irrationally acting children are mentally stable. In fact, I'm pretty sure that they are both emotionally unstable. I believe I've already stated that.

4. I have already thoroughly researched schizophrenia and have even taken some pretty in depth classes offered by NAMI (National Alliance for Mental Illness) on the topic, as well as classes for family members who are dealing with this illness in their loved ones. I know about the shortened life span. That being said, I am not my brother's guardian and will not take on that role and neither will my mother. He has wreaked absolute havoc in our lives and I'm sorry, but his problems are exacerbated by his lack of good character and substance abuse, and always have been. My pity has limits. As I've stated, he's been very threatening toward me in the past - and the not too distant past for that matter. He has also been so threatening and so awful to my mother that my dad had to order him to leave their property. I have had to call the police to get him removed from my property in the past as well. Nope. Not taking that job on. And my mother is unable to as well. He does not respect either of us (actually he doesn't respect women) and will absolutely not "submit to our authority." His mental healthcare facility actually tried to get me to sign for his temporary visits - which meant that I was taking on the responsibility of monitoring him 24/7 and guaranteeing that he would not be around drugs, alcohol, or weapons and would be with me every minute of the day and night. I said, "Are you kidding me? HE won't abide by those rules. So no." And he wouldn't have. My dad used to sign for him so to speak, agreeing to those terms, and the minute my brother was "out" he would do whatever he wanted to do and to hell with the terms of temporary release.

He's not a nice guy.

He is a ward of the state at the moment and on 100 percent disability. At present, his physical health is stable. If that changes, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. But frankly, there's not a lot that my mother and I can even do for him.
The reality is that your brother, possibly with the help of a couple of your kids, can get your mother so confused she agrees to be victimized. It sounds to me like you have no legal standing, you just have your name on her bank accounts. All that means is that when your brother overdraws the accounts, you are on the hook for the money. You need to become a court appointed conservator or guardian for your mother.
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,904 posts, read 32,658,014 times
Reputation: 57027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Caldwell View Post
The reality is that your brother, possibly with the help of a couple of your kids, can get your mother so confused she agrees to be victimized. It sounds to me like you have no legal standing, you just have your name on her bank accounts. All that means is that when your brother overdraws the accounts, you are on the hook for the money. You need to become a court appointed conservator or guardian for your mother.
I'll take the attorneys' advice on that matter. I have a durable general POA for my mother. I watch those accounts like a hawk. The bank and the financial planners and attorneys all know the situation completely. Since I am on the bank accounts, no one can be added to the accounts without me signing off on it. My brother does not have easy access to my mother - besides the fact that she is actually afraid of him, she has moved to a very secured facility where he cannot just traipse in and see her. Not only that, he lives 8 hours away and is involuntarily monitored by the state.

I either talk to or see my mother every single day, sometimes several times a day. I see her in person at least four times a week, usually more than that. I am very attune to her moods, her challenges, what's going on with her, etc.

That being said, I am meeting with the attorneys (again) tomorrow. I am sure they will give me rock solid advice. So far I have followed their advice to a T and will continue to do so. They do not at this time recommend that I become my mother's guardian or court appointed conservator. If they recommend that, I will do so. I've been through that before and even in that situation, I would not have had to do that if I had had a durable, general POA put in place before the person became incapacitated.

Not only that - I cannot become my mother's guardian legally UNLESS she is declared mentally incapacitated. I am not sure things are to that point yet. My mother has some mental and health issues but those don't necessarily mean she's mentally incapacitated.

I was a bank manager for many years by the way, and I do know how to keep very close tabs on this situation.
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Old 12-19-2016, 10:45 AM
 
Location: SWFL
21,433 posts, read 18,150,188 times
Reputation: 18814
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
He is NOT here with us now. They allowed him to come home for the funeral and then he had to go back a couple of days later, which he did. Not only that, they apparently searched him or tested him or something (or both) and actually locked him back up for about a week or two after he got back, because he had broken many of the rules of the temporary release, including substance abuse as well as gathering up and packing up a collection of very large knives. He may have also had guns with him, who knows? I do know that he has been trying to get all sorts of people to give him or sell him guns. WHY????????? WHY WHY WHY? It is against state and federal law for him to own guns!!!!!!

I stick by my statement that my brother is not a nice guy. Yes, he is mentally ill, but even his team of medical professionals agree that his drug use during his teen years (during brain development) and into his adult years either caused or greatly exacerbated his mental illness issues. And he was NEVER a nice guy - he has been a Class A jerk since he was a teenager and young adult. Come to think of it, he wasn't even a particularly nice kid. Always difficult, always spoiled, always a feeling of entitlement, and always devious and cruel. Always.

My brother is in a program offered by the state. He can stay in that program for the rest of his life if he chooses to do so. He is on 100 percent disability. However, even his medical team has assured us - and him - that he can and SHOULD work part time. He refuses to do so (no surprise there - he's never wanted to work). As long as he takes his meds and follows the rules of the program, he will never have to live on the streets. He knows all this, but it's not good enough for him. He wants his inheritance - MONEY - NOW. Never mind that it's not his - it's my mother's. He wants it now. Heck, he can't even have the money or he will lose his disability benefits!!!! It has to go into a trust called a Special Needs Trust and that is set up to provide comfortably for him. But that is after my mom dies - SHE'S NOT DEAD YET.

He is in no way, shape or form destitute and in no danger of having to "live on the streets" unless he voluntarily refuses to take his meds. Which would be ON HIM.

Being mentally ill does not absolve one of all personal responsibility. In some cases, especially when ongoing substance abuse is involved, it's hard to tell which came first - the substance abuse or the mental illness - and substance abuse ALWAYS makes mental illness worse, not better. A mentally ill person is still responsible for adhering to a treatment plan. If they need meds, they need to take responsibility for the decision to stay on or get off the meds. This is within the capabilities of most mentally ill people, including my brother. Like I said before, he has above average intelligence. He knows he is mentally ill and needs treatment, and in fact, he is a GROUP LEADER in his program. He preaches all the time about the importance of continuing therapy, including staying on meds. He leads classes on this very topic. He knows he is not supposed to mix the psychotropic drugs with illicit drugs or alcohol. He leads classes on this as well. But that doesn't stop him from mixing them apparently.

He also knows he is not supposed to own weapons. That doesn't stop him either.

My brother is determined to break the law, which he resents. He is also determined not to work. He is determined to try to manipulate his family into supporting him. He is determined to believe that I am trying to "cheat him out of his inheritance," which is not even true. (At one point, he was very actively trying to cajole my parents into leaving both my older brother and me completely out of their wills, by the way, leaving it all to him - and when that didn't work, he actually did convince them both for a time to name him as the executor - thankfully, they wised up after a while and changed that).
Kathryn, my late 1st MIL was manic/depressive, as they used to call it, she was fine when she was on her meds but every few years the condition overrode the meds and made her think she was absolutely fine and did not need the pills anymore and she would flip out and get put into the mental institution again. Rinse and repeat until her passing.

I do know that most bi-polar people do the same thing. Get better, the "disease" talks them into getting off their meds and they flounder again. Seems to be the "nature of the beast" with this condition.

I say this because of what I bolded in your post. There ARE circumstances that mentally ill people have no control over no matter how much they may want to be "normal". Doesn't sound like your bro wants to get better because he doesn't see anything wrong with himself. He sounds like a dangerous human being.
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Old 12-20-2016, 01:24 AM
 
26,163 posts, read 14,463,143 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon
I can't tell you how much this means to me. Thank you very, very much.
Boy I am so sorry Kathryn

I wll say a prayer for you........
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Old 12-21-2016, 11:46 PM
 
Location: Cochise county, AZ
4,540 posts, read 3,006,146 times
Reputation: 9433
KA, I feel for you.

My son was bipolar & did some horrible things, but when on his meds he was a very sweet person. Then he went off them when he was in the middle of a divorce & ended up putting himself on fire.

Somehow he survived but, the meds he needed for his mental health were compromised by his pain meds. The sweet person was gone forever. It got to the point where I had to distance myself from him because he threatened to kill me & my family because we wouldn't give him money.

To be honest, it was a relief to quit worrying all the time & stop looking over my shoulder.

I'm sad now as it is coming on a year since he died. The coroner said it was natural causes, his heart just gave out. But, before he died it was scary.

That doesn't mean I didn't love him. It was his illness that was scary.
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Old 12-22-2016, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
40,904 posts, read 32,658,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meo92953 View Post
KA, I feel for you.

My son was bipolar & did some horrible things, but when on his meds he was a very sweet person. Then he went off them when he was in the middle of a divorce & ended up putting himself on fire.

Somehow he survived but, the meds he needed for his mental health were compromised by his pain meds. The sweet person was gone forever. It got to the point where I had to distance myself from him because he threatened to kill me & my family because we wouldn't give him money.

To be honest, it was a relief to quit worrying all the time & stop looking over my shoulder.

I'm sad now as it is coming on a year since he died. The coroner said it was natural causes, his heart just gave out. But, before he died it was scary.

That doesn't mean I didn't love him. It was his illness that was scary.
This is exactly how I feel.

I am very sorry for your loss. What a tragic life. My brother's life is going along the same trajectory.
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Old 12-22-2016, 09:59 AM
 
Location: Maine
1,949 posts, read 2,595,890 times
Reputation: 2616
KathrynAragon, I am so, so sorry you have had to experience this. The passing of a dear parent must be so difficult. Anyone who has read your posts would know that you are an exceptionally perceptive, honest, kind, and intelligent person. It is very troubling to have a family member think and behave in manipulative, selfish ways. None of what your brother has tried to do can actually change the truth about you. Anyone who chooses to be influenced by his lies and deviousness is not thinking straight.

How wonderful it is that you had such great father! All that love is real and can never been taken away from you.
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